View Full Version : Ehaust manifold
Has anyone changed this and had good results??
Thanks
From what i've read the standard part is pretty good and difficult to improve upon.
I'd be interested to know otherwise
exdos
19-05-2006, 03:45 PM
Lee,
If you're looking for some big power gains, I think you'll have to go down the turbo or supercharger route. You know you want to :wink: 8)
Lee,
If you're looking for some big power gains, I think you'll have to go down the turbo or supercharger route. You know you want to :wink: 8)
Yes I do John but not sure about reliability and support in the UK
I think I would rather go down the route of the e39 M5 engine, at least that way I can have it maintained by people I know and trust!
Lee
THE ANIMAL
19-05-2006, 04:34 PM
If you want a good power gain stick a carbon air box and run it on AlphaN which allows you to run no air flow meter and you could be banging around 380+ hp with some other bits and bobs. Also put a nice light weight fly wheel as well.
maahny
19-05-2006, 04:41 PM
Problem with uprating the manifold is that most of them are designed for LHD cars. Supersprint have one for RHD but as Col said the original is meant to be pretty hard to improve on.
What THE ANIMAL said is the best way to extract more reliable power from the S50 with the addition of some uprated cams.
am I right in thinking that a carbon air box running Alpha N is much better for power higher up the rev range??
maahny
19-05-2006, 04:53 PM
From my understanding removing the MAF and using AlphaN gives greater torque across the rev range and the addition of cams gives greater power at the top of the rev range. So if you do both you win all round.
With a carbon airbox the car will sound like a touring car!! I have heard a few E30 M3's with this setup and they sound mental.
Racing Technologies did a simliar thing for my friends e30 M3 but used a more expensive engine management system called Motec.
From my understanding removing the MAF and using AlphaN gives greater torque across the rev range and the addition of cams gives greater power at the top of the rev range. So if you do both you win all round.
With a carbon airbox the car will sound like a touring car!! I have heard a few E30 M3's with this setup and they sound mental.
Racing Technologies did a simliar thing for my friends e30 M3 but used a more expensive engine management system called Motec.
I have seen the car you are talking about :D looked awesome
exdos
19-05-2006, 05:02 PM
How about running on AlphaN with the OEM air-filter box :?:
Lee is intending to buy an S54 MC and there is a different inlet manifold on this engine to the 6 pipe arrangement on the S50 MC
This photo shows the S54 inlet manifold - it's under the black plastic cover on the upper left side of the photo.
http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/53lagged_air-box.jpg
I understand that the design of this manifold offers least resistance to the air entering the "less favourable" cylinders, thus optimising the contribution that each cylinder makes to total engine performance.
THE ANIMAL
22-05-2006, 10:15 PM
The Carbon air box goes straight onto the throttle bodies so it fits onto the s50 and s54 no problem if tuned properly you can gain allot of bottom end power with these. Basically as mentioned by Maahny power everywhere. It can be tuned to have a really nice flat power curve which is great to drive or a big top end power gain but peaky.
who does these for the MC?
what is R.Helenbrands site??
Lee
maahny
23-05-2006, 12:34 AM
http://www.macmotoren.com/BMW%20Z3%20M%20Coupe_3_2%20Power%20S50
There is no one in the UK that does it AFAIK.
THE ANIMAL
23-05-2006, 01:24 AM
Im sure this link will help you out try giving them a ring very helpfull and clued up on it.
http://www.moseleymotorsport.com/
I have delt with moseleymotorsport and can vouch for them.
There are also these lot that do it but have no experience with them.
http://www.ca-automotive.co.uk/ecis-induction-systems.shtml
exdos
23-05-2006, 10:56 AM
If you take a look at the air intake manifold systems as shown on http://www.realoem.com
http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/53S54_Intake.jpg
You'll see that the S54 air intake manifold also fits straight onto the throttle bodies and is not that dissimilar in principle to the CF air-intake of the M3 CSL or even the one manufactured by RHellenbrands at http://www.macmotoren.com/BMW%20Z3%20M%20Coupe_3_2%20Power%20S50
The cost of RHellenbrands is 3,800 Euros (£2,582) therefore my question in the previous posting; can you not obtain similar performance gains with the S54 just by converting the engine to run Alpha-N thus saving yourself around 3500 Euros :?:
In the case of the S50, the air intake manifold is somewhat different:
http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/53S50_Intake_Manifold.jpg
The size of the air plenum of the S50 is much narrower and has not been optimised for best flow of air before the air must enter the individual pipes attached to each throttle body. I can see how a larger air-intake manifold such as the S54's or RHellenbrands' CF air intake would improve performance here.
The question I ask is how much performance improvement is down to the air-intake manifold configuration and how much down to running on Alpha-N. My logic tells me that in the case of the S54, there would be little gain from changing the OEM air intake manifold alone. Since the original question was posed by Lee, who has said he is changing his S50 for a S54 MC, I think he could get more "bang per buck" by spending his money on something other than a CF air intake manifold for his new S54 MC. As always, I'm willing to be corrected by those who know more about these things than me.
interesting..... the S54 manifold is a lot larger!
for those with the S54 engines, I wonder could the CSL induction be modified to run on the MC?
exdos
23-05-2006, 11:29 AM
interesting..... the S54 manifold is a lot larger!
for those with the S54 engines, I wonder could the CSL induction be modified to run on the MC?
Here's a diagram of the M3 CSL CF air intake manifold:
http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/53M3_CSL_Manifold.jpg
It looks very similar to the S54 air intake manifold but costs $2,974 (£1,584). Why change :?: Surely it can't perform much better than the S54 MC's plastic air intake manifold, even if the thing does get a bit hot, because the MAF has already done it's monitoring before the air enters the manifold. Part No 5 in the CSL manifold is the temperature sensor.
If you look at the first picture I posted in this thread, you'll see I've wrapped insulation around the air intake system right up to the air-intake manifold, this prevents heat soak so the MAF monitors the largest volume of cold air. OK, it doesn't look pretty but it cost me less than £15 to do.
This is why I ask will converting to Alpha-N alone, not give you the increase in performance that you want? Personally, I can't see how changing the air intake manifold on an S54 MC will make that much difference.
would the CSL intake fit straight onto the S54?
exdos
23-05-2006, 03:04 PM
The CSL intake manifold should fit straight onto a S54 engine of a S54 MC but the unknown is whether the bonnet will close on top :?:
The rest of the CF air-intake system from a M3 CSL wouldn't go inside the engine compartment of the MC though.
whats the difference between the CSL CF intake and an induction kit, is it just the bit that bolts onto the engine?
exdos
23-05-2006, 03:41 PM
whats the difference between the CSL CF intake and an induction kit, is it just the bit that bolts onto the engine?
The CSL CF air-intake system is an air induction system whereas most other aftermarket "air induction" kits are ways of parting motorists from their money with promises of improved performance if you replace your OEM air-intake system with their products.
Reading between the lines above, you can probably guess that I'm cynical about this subject. :wink: :lol:
whats the difference between the CSL CF intake and an induction kit, is it just the bit that bolts onto the engine?
The CSL CF air-intake system is an air induction system whereas most other aftermarket "air induction" kits are ways of parting motorists from their money with promises of improved performance if you replace your OEM air-intake system with their products.
Reading between the lines above, you can probably guess that I'm cynical about this subject. :wink: :lol:
so unless you are upgrading to a CSL type product it would be best to use the exdos mod?!
exdos
23-05-2006, 04:16 PM
so unless you are upgrading to a CSL type product it would be best to use the exdos mod?!
I personally think the entire OEM air-intake system on the S54 MC is very well designed except for the restriction in the air-filter box which the Exdos mod cures. My mod is free so why waste good money on chasing a few more horses when you can spend the money far more wisely on a performance upgrade that will definitely improve the overall performance of your car, namely handling mods, such as front and rear strut braces, uprated ARBs and suspension upgrades?
THE ANIMAL
23-05-2006, 04:48 PM
exdos it’s not just a couple of extra hp its 50+ hp gain. To gain the full effect you need to do both you wont gain much by just running alphaN or by using just the carbon air box with standard ecu settings and air flow meter. When you do both together it is awesome It is far superior to the standard stuff. Id assume someone doing this mod would have already done all other mods for handling and breaks. Trust me if you saw one of these set ups done properly coupled with an exhaust system and lightened fly wheel and some cams it would make your Jaw drop to the floor especially the noise and flame spitting. You can also put bigger throttle bodies on and flow the head if you really want to go mad.
r80ter
23-05-2006, 05:00 PM
I agree with The ANIMAL, this mod is for the more hardcore person, its not something to do on its own, the intake coupled with all the other mods listed would be awesome and probably never done by the "average joe"
De-baffling/de-restricting of BMW airboxes has been around for years, how you can name it after yourself seems a little big headed, but your write up of how to do it is very thorough and for the novice its a very simple and FREE mod! but those who are after the next level must look at removing the BMW airbox completely. The carbon airbox above is premier league stuff, you are not that likely to see it in a road car tbh due to the high cost, but if I had the cash, i would!
I agree with The ANIMAL, this mod is for the more hardcore person, its not something to do on its own, the intake coupled with all the other mods listed would be awesome and probably never done by the "average joe"
De-baffling/de-restricting of BMW airboxes has been around for years, how you can name it after yourself seems a little big headed, but your write up of how to do it is very thorough and for the novice its a very simple and FREE mod! but those who are after the next level must look at removing the BMW airbox completely. The carbon airbox above is premier league stuff, you are not that likely to see it in a road car tbh due to the high cost, but if I had the cash, i would!
Hawthawns done this to their car apparently.
very very loud by all accounts
I think I will go with the R.Hellenbrand model carbon induction with Alphan N
waiting for a reply to an email from them.
I have been told that there is an 8 week lead time on order for AP brake kits due to them moving premesis so I could do this asap.
r80ter
23-05-2006, 05:20 PM
Lee, do it man!! and I want to be the first in the passenger seat!!!
what do you think will be the HP after? are you talking about about urs or about the S54?
ill put my name down for the old induction unit!
what do you think will be the HP after? are you talking about about urs or about the S54?
ill put my name down for the old induction unit!
the current Viper carbon induction is an awesome upgrade on standard, the sound is immense and the additional torque was definitely noticeable.
it is not an off the shelf item, Racing technologies use it for ferraris and lambos with good effect and they originally developed it for Guys car.
I am very interested in Alpha N and will be doing this soon.
I will keep you posted once I have a reply from Mr Hellenbrand :D
maahny
23-05-2006, 09:29 PM
You'll have to come on a Tunnel Run when you get that lot on. As well as being one of the fastest NA MC's your car will sound insane 8)
THE ANIMAL
23-05-2006, 09:53 PM
Here is a demonstration for you on what it would sound like if you did it right with a couple of other mods like mentioned before lightened flywheel etc except for the quick flat upchanges with the sequential box be ready for some Jaw dropping.
I used to have a similar set up on my old E30 M3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9fMRlY6L-Q&search=BMW%20M3
exdos
23-05-2006, 10:53 PM
exdos it’s not just a couple of extra hp its 50+ hp gain.
THE ANIMAL,
Yes, I understand that the gain is as large as 50+ hp. All I am questioning is that, in the case of the S54, with the OEM intake manifold having a large plenum and other than not being made of CF, is of essentially a similar design to the M3 CSL one, what percentage of that 50+hp gain is down to the Alpha-N and what percentage is attributable to a CF airbox of similar design? I somehow can't accept that you need to both things to achieve any gain at all, although I can accept that doing both may give a greater gain than doing either seperately. My enquiring mind just likes to know these things :wink:
how you can name it after yourself seems a little big headed, but your write up of how to do it is very thorough and for the novice its a very simple and FREE mod!
r80ter,
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Nobody else, novice or otherwise (if you're trying to put me down :wink:) had worked out the Exdos mod before I did, even though the MC and MR had been around for some 7 years. What else do you suggest I call the mod? Is "the mod to the air-intake pipe inside the air-filter box where you cut it all off to stop the airflow being strangulated" more to your taste :?: :wink: :lol: I can't see how you think it's bigheaded of me to give it the title that I have because in case you haven't gathered, Exdos is not my real name, and you wouldn't know who I was if you bumped into me in the street. Very few members of this forum who have met me even know my surname and they don't even call me "Exdos" when we meet .:wink: :lol:
You'll have to get your "thinking cap" on and work out a "r80ter mod" we can all share for free :wink: 8)
brady
23-05-2006, 11:43 PM
its seems to be difficult to find anyone who does something like this, particularly in ireland! a mate of mine has an e36 m3 with a similar setup but still has the MAF, sounds the nuts!
r80ter
24-05-2006, 12:08 AM
how you can name it after yourself seems a little big headed, but your write up of how to do it is very thorough and for the novice its a very simple and FREE mod!
r80ter,
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Nobody else, novice or otherwise (if you're trying to put me down :wink:) had worked out the Exdos mod before I did, even though the MC and MR had been around for some 7 years. What else do you suggest I call the mod? Is "the mod to the air-intake pipe inside the air-filter box where you cut it all off to stop the airflow being strangulated" more to your taste :?: :wink: :lol: I can't see how you think it's bigheaded of me to give it the title that I have because in case you haven't gathered, Exdos is not my real name, and you wouldn't know who I was if you bumped into me in the street. Very few members of this forum who have met me even know my surname and they don't even call me "Exdos" when we meet .:wink: :lol:
You'll have to get your "thinking cap" on and work out a "r80ter mod" we can all share for free :wink: 8)
So back in the mid 90's when the M3, 328sport were released there was nobody who had already done this, Sorry for being so naive. There was me thinking I knew of this modification before the Z3 was even released!
I wasnt trying to put you down at all, i think some of the knowledge you have and you share is very useful, I have personaly learnt a great deal from your extensive suspension write up and for that I thank you.
I had gathered that Exdos was not your real name! but as a regular on forums, people know you better by your user name, in the Z3/ZMC world, the name "exdos" is quite well known.
As for a "rooter Mod" Hmmm I will have to have a think about that.... watch this space! but as for a suggestion on a better name for the airbox mod? how about "Breathe easy mod" lol, i should be in marketing!
I hope you have not taken offence, as that was not my intention.
R80TER. (scott)
For manifolds have a chat with Pat at Primary Designs. they usually work on F1 & WRC cars but have also done manifolds for road cars & will do one offs as well :D I bought an inconel manifold with zirconia coating for my last car i also had a titanium exhaust and decat pipe and the quality is top notch . It wont be cheap though :wink: but expect to get very noticeable performance gains :D
http://www.racecar.co.uk/primarydesigns/
Some of the teams they have worked on :wink:
Renault F1
Redbull Racing
Toyota F1
BAR
Jaguar Racing
Williams F1
Jordan Grand Prix
Sauber F1
Benetton F1
Lotus F1
Leyton House
Tyrell
Arrows GP
Simtek
Pacific
McLaren Cars
McLaren Motorsport
Lola Cars
TWR Group
BTCC Teams
DTM Teams
Ford World Rally
Mitsubishi Ralliart
Vauxhall/Opel Rally
Nissan Motorsport
Prodrive
they may be able to help with turbo charging as well :D
exdos
24-05-2006, 11:35 AM
So back in the mid 90's when the M3, 328sport were released there was nobody who had already done this, Sorry for being so naive. There was me thinking I knew of this modification before the Z3 was even released!
I fully realise that there are others who are far more "petrolheaded" than me and know the specifications of cars inside out, and I was blissfully unaware of anything similar done to M3s in the mid-1990s. I worked out the Exdos mod from scientific first principles. If the mid 90's M3, 328 sport shares the same or similar air-filter box with the S50 and S54 MC and MR then where were you and all the other petrolheads to tell us all about this mod before I did :?:
I hope you have not taken offence, as that was not my intention.
As a long-standing active participant on this and other internet forums, I realise that all posters are there to be shot at and I can easily understand why many members are primarily "lurkers". I've received my share of abuse and ridicule on this forum for bothering to share information with others, and I've questioned myself several times as to whether it's worth the effort in typing the words when you feel at times that others are being churlish, even about trivial things like the title you give to an idea that you are sharing for no personal reward. No, I haven't taken offence. I merely ask myself again should I resort to becoming a lurker and have a fit of pique and delete all my posts :?:
no, I like reading yours and other posts on the forum and I think there is a lack of activity at the best of times.
having said that I have visited many forums from the cars I have owned:
SELOC.co.uk(lotus), Porschaforum.co.uk,BM3W.co.uk,Vx220.org.uk, Zroadster.co.uk.
and this forum/marque has a much tighter community than others
without people like you this place would not even be worth logging on to.
exdos
24-05-2006, 12:08 PM
Lee,
Thanks for your kind comments, but I wasn't looking for praise, support or gratitude from anyone in writing what I did. I feel the same as you about this forum and since the overwhelming majority of members of this forum are a very friendly lot and as equally willing to share information and ideas with me, on balance, I am more than happy to reciprocate. We all learn from each other. I'll put up with a little back-biting for all the good things that this forum offers.
Now, lets get back to some facts and figures. When you get a 50+hp gain from fitting a CF air-intake system and coinverting to Alpha-N what percentage of that 50+ hp is down to the CF intake and what percentage is attributable to the CF air-intake in the case of a S54 MC
:?:
The material used isn't going to affect things IMO, and the extra 50bhp is from much more than the intake. The CSL is rated at 360bhp but afaik has different cams, higher rev limit etc?
exdos
25-05-2006, 09:16 PM
Lee,
There was a link to the thread below, posted on the zroadster.net. The first post in the thread is a good description of the S54 engine and worth downloading for future reference. There is a bit of a description of the air-intake manifold being "designed for the maximum volume required for the S54 engine" and that it is different to the M3 version because of the "hood dimensions". That seems to answer one of your earlier questions.
http://www.bm3w.co.uk/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=104392&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
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