Sub-floor / sub-frame failure!!! Check your M Coupe today!

[dendeman]

Had a persistent creaking noise coming from the rear of my '99 M Coupe (70k miles) for a long time now and naturally attributed this to plastic interior in the boot area. But yesterday the creaking rapidly got bad enough to worry me and think that something didn't sound right. You could hear the creaking as you were slowly moving off in first and slowly stopping.

Anyway, I remembered the widely discussed topic (roadfly, bimmerforum, bimmerfest, etc.) of sub floor or sub frame failures in a huge number of M Coupes and decided to have a look under the toolkit and the jack.

I found a massive tear and a number of failed spot-welds (apparently this is a cheap and unacceptable way to weld such a component and a MIG or similar weld should be performed. I am not an engineer, but that’s what I’ve read elsewhere).

I've got pictures, but seem to be unable to upload for some reason. If anyone can help with the pics - let me know, there are 3 ~150kb files that clearly demonstrate the failure. SCARY, you have to see this and check your M Coupe.

I will try to take it to my local dealer (Hexagon of Highgate in North London) and insist they write a letter to BMW GB requesting they cover the full cost of fixing the problem of a safety critical element of the vehicle.

[maahny]

Sorry to hear that mate. send me the pics and i'll put them up. imran_arshad2000 at hotmail.com.

[dendeman]

Thanks Maahny,

The pics are in your Inbox.

[maahny]

That is bad :evil:

http://static.flickr.com/28/153774521_0d812fc4aa_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/26/153774520_321e1e5668_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/51/153774519_b3da40b0c8_o.jpg

Best of luck sorting it out Denis. Keep us all informed of the outcome.

[BMK]

:o Please tell me thats not a common faliure......

[maahny]

Its happened to a couple of cars on this forum. BMW have fixed it at no cost previously. Better stop doing donuts :D

[dendeman]

Its happened to a couple of cars on this forum. BMW have fixed it at no cost previously. Better stop doing donuts :D

Please let me know who this happened to and how they got BMW to pay for the fix, as I need some "ammo" before I go to the dealer tomorrow!

[BMK]

Oh blimmy, hope you get it sorted out!

[maahny]

Nemesis is the one that springs to mind. He must have had his car back by now. I know a non forum member that it happened to. I'll speak to him and see if he is OK with me passing on his contact details.

[BEN]

didnt it happen a lot in the states? or is just they complain more? A LOT MORE!

[MrMicko]

I have two cracks at differential mount, BMW refuses to pay the repair and dealer has stopped answering my mails :)

But my cracks are minor, easy to fix.

[Lee]

sorry to read this Dendeman,

I hope BMW take this seriously

Good luck!

[Broccers]

Cripes - keep us up to speed with progress.

Best of luck.

Simon.

[chippy]

Blimey :shock: :shock:

I've had all the trim out of the coupe this weekend, after fitting my Schnitzer race suspension, and had a good look for any cracks. Thankfully all clear but i'll be checking every 3 months from now on especially with having the upgraded diff :roll:

Hope you get it sorted ok!

[Lee]

Blimey :shock: :shock:

I've had all the trim out of the coupe this weekend, after fitting my Schnitzer race suspension, and had a good look for any cracks. Thankfully all clear but i'll be checking every 3 months from now on especially with having the upgraded diff :roll:

Hope you get it sorted ok!

just checked mine also

looks like the day it rolled out of the factory!

I guess it comes down to the person who did the weld and how competent they were?

did they change the procedure for later cars??

[dendeman]

Thank you all for the support and I will keep you posted.

... looks like the day it rolled out of the factory!

I think a regular check should be carried out by all M Coupe owners, as I has inspected the sub floor about a year ago and it was perfect. It only takes 5-10 minutes.

The dealer is on "skeleton" staff today, so I'll take it there on Tuesday.

[Lee]

Thank you all for the support and I will keep you posted.

... looks like the day it rolled out of the factory!

I think a regular check should be carried out by all M Coupe owners, as I has inspected the sub floor about a year ago and it was perfect. It only takes 5-10 minutes.

The dealer is on "skeleton" staff today, so I'll take it there on Tuesday.


If you think there is anything we can all do as a 'club' let us know.

maybe a group letter to BMW GB??

[Rags]

Thank you all for the support and I will keep you posted.

... looks like the day it rolled out of the factory!

I think a regular check should be carried out by all M Coupe owners, as I has inspected the sub floor about a year ago and it was perfect. It only takes 5-10 minutes.

The dealer is on "skeleton" staff today, so I'll take it there on Tuesday.


If you think there is anything we can all do as a 'club' let us know.

maybe a group letter to BMW GB??

Jesus, that looks bad.

Hope you get it sorted and its a good heads up for all current and imminent MCoupe owners :shock:

[Breadvan Matt]

Lads,
My previous M coupe also had sub-frame failure (99, with 60k miles). The rear bracket holding the diff in place cracked and was repaired. Only found out after I had bought the car and when I was selling it a year later (was spotted by the new buyer during an inspection). The car had been repaired well (by the dealer I bought it off). I never experienced any "creaking noises" or handling issues but it is possible the previous owner did.

And yes, it is a common problem. My US spec M roadster also required some subframe welding work during its life. If I was buying another one of these cars, its probably the first thing I'd check. Thing is, it is sometimes very difficult to spot. Some subframe cracks can be visible from underneath the car only.

[exdos]

Dendeman,

I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune :cry:

It would be very useful if you could give me a "job number" if you get such a thing for your repair. I would propose that this forum, as a collection of MC owners, writes an appropriate letter to BMW about this subject, since it isn't uncommon. BMW should make a recall to all MCs that are potentially prone to this fault since prevention must be better than cure once your car has started to tear itself apart. I will volunteer to write the letter.

[Rags]

Its got to be done.

How many people have this waiting to happen.

:shock:

[Brett]

Any update on this one? What was the outcome?

[dendeman]

Any update on this one? What was the outcome?

Nothing concrete to report just yet, but it seems BMW GB has preliminarily agreed to fix everything including replacing the whole sub-floor at their cost!

Holding everything crossed for now and will update you all as soon as i have any further news.

[Brett]

Any update on this one? What was the outcome?

Nothing concrete to report just yet, but it seems BMW GB has preliminarily agreed to fix everything including replacing the whole sub-floor at their cost!

Holding everything crossed for now and will update you all as soon as i have any further news.

Wow - all the best for the right outcome!

[dalecan]

Any more news on this dendeman :shock:

[dendeman]

Any more news on this dendeman :shock:

The regional manager is comming on Thu 13/07/06, so I should have further news by the end of the week.

Stay tuned.

[dendeman]

Any more news on this dendeman :shock:

The regional manager is comming on Thu 13/07/06, so I should have further news by the end of the week.

Stay tuned.

Well, the regional manager has been yesterday and has agreed that BMW GB will cover the total cost of the repair and provide me with a nice Mini Cooper for the duration (about 4-5 weeks).

RESULT!!! :D

[BEN]

gret news mate!

[Si_B]

Hi Dendeman

Glad to hear the good news. Will all this done under EW or did BMW agree to do this off their own backs?

[dendeman]

Hi Dendeman

Glad to hear the good news. Will all this done under EW or did BMW agree to do this off their own backs?

No extended warranty, so just surprisingly good goodwill :D

[Rags]

too right.

you should be the first port of call if it happens to someone else :shock:

[exdos]

Can someone give me a link to the various fixes that people have devised to strengthen the subrame/floor /diff mount, where there are photos of the hardware for the fixes. I've seen something before, but can't remember where, and a search on this just pulls out loads of stuff to wade through.

[Lee]

try here :!:

http://www.z3bimmer.com/Garage/Fixes/

[exdos]

Lee,

Cheers :!: Exactly what I was looking for 8)

[exdos]

I also found this link to the Randy Forbes fix. There are loads of photos of how Randy does this fix by following the three links given in Randy's post (the 6th posting in the thread).

This guy comes from the same school of over-engineering that I subscribe to rather than the Colin Chapman school of under-engineering. :wink:

[Rags]

Exdos.

In terms of preventative measures for this defect?

Any ideas?

If it ain't broke, dont fix it, but it looks like a weakness that I would like to mitigate :shock:

[exdos]

Exdos.

In terms of preventative measures for this defect?

Any ideas?

If it ain't broke, dont fix it, but it looks like a weakness that I would like to mitigate :shock:

I think I'll be inclined to take the same "if it ain't broke" attitude. I'll take a good look again at mine sometime soon to see if the potential weakness can be strengthened a little more simply than the Randy Forbes fix, because his fix is a lot of work for a preventive measure.

I think that part of the problem of the floor and diff mounts failing might probably lie in movement of the subframe on their bushes, especailly when these things get worn. I've had a butt strut on my MC for 2 years now and I think that this part may well be a sufficiently preventive measure in keeping the parts of the back end which are supposed to be rigid, fixed together. There was one guy at Gaydon yesterday who'd made his own butt-strut and bodybrace for his MR which I liked. I shall probably make something similar myself. The beauty of the butt-strut and body brace is that they are "bolt on" parts and so you are not having to weld onto your car. If you did the Randy Forbes fix as a preventive measure, would someone coming to examine your car not think your car has already suffered from the dreaded floor failure :?:

I hope you managed to get home OK with that spare wheel.

[khooni]

you could also order polyurethane rear subframe bushings to cope with the movement. i ordered some from ireland engineering and will get them installed to try to minimise movement of the subframe.

[Rags]

Exdos.

In terms of preventative measures for this defect?

Any ideas?

If it ain't broke, dont fix it, but it looks like a weakness that I would like to mitigate :shock:

I think I'll be inclined to take the same "if it ain't broke" attitude. I'll take a good look again at mine sometime soon to see if the potential weakness can be strengthened a little more simply than the Randy Forbes fix, because his fix is a lot of work for a preventive measure.

I think that part of the problem of the floor and diff mounts failing might probably lie in movement of the subframe on their bushes, especailly when these things get worn. I've had a butt strut on my MC for 2 years now and I think that this part may well be a sufficiently preventive measure in keeping the parts of the back end which are supposed to be rigid, fixed together. There was one guy at Gaydon yesterday who'd made his own butt-strut and bodybrace for his MR which I liked. I shall probably make something similar myself. The beauty of the butt-strut and body brace is that they are "bolt on" parts and so you are not having to weld onto your car. If you did the Randy Forbes fix as a preventive measure, would someone coming to examine your car not think your car has already suffered from the dreaded floor failure :?:

I hope you managed to get home OK with that spare wheel.


Well, I got home ok but not with that wheel!

That new wheel didn't have a tyre valve.

So we swapped the valves over, and fitted the wheel.

But it didn't clear the strut!!


So I resorted to using the tyre foam and limped back at 60mph and the tyre(even this morning) is still inflated

Anyway, time to buy some new tyres as the tyre foam allegedly eats the tyre from the inside!

[c_w]

I'm not sure if the butt strut will add any strength to the parts that are known to fail as they are quite a bit further backward, at the diff/boot floor area. I think its quite easy to see why its possible for the rear mounting parts and structure of these cars to fail, given that over 300bhp is being pushed through brackets that look like they'd normally be used for interior trim mounting points. I think the double ear diff mounting would relieve and distribute the loading a lot better.

Apparently some of the brakcets can be "doubled up" which would add a lot of strength then weld the brackets better to the body rather than spot-welding.

[exdos]

I'm not sure if the butt strut will add any strength to the parts that are known to fail as they are quite a bit further backward, at the diff/boot floor area. I think its quite easy to see why its possible for the rear mounting parts and structure of these cars to fail, given that over 300bhp is being pushed through brackets that look like they'd normally be used for interior trim mounting points. I think the double ear diff mounting would relieve and distribute the loading a lot better.

Apparently some of the brakcets can be "doubled up" which would add a lot of strength then weld the brackets better to the body rather than spot-welding.

c_w,

Here's a diagram I've done to show the main parts on the back end and how any movement of the subframe on the subframe retraining bolts will cause twisting of the differential on its mounting points.

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/53Cause_of_diff_mount_failure.jpg

If the subframe were more rigidly attached and held captive to the body, then there would be very little movement. A butt strut does this, but when a body brace is also used in conjunction, then the subframe retaining bolts must remain vertical and in a fixed position because they will be held capitve at both ends of the bolts. The diagram below shows how this works.

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/53Butt_Strut_fitted.jpg

I think the boot floor issue is more likely to be of poor welding during manufacturing rather than a design fault. But having said that, the weak mounting points of both the differential and the rear ARB are design faults which will test any structural weakness present. I am definitely going to make my own bodybrace because I think this will prevent any tendency to diff mount failure and since it's a "bolt on" mod no welding to the structure of the car is required, although I can also do that myself.

[c_w]

I don't think the diff is attached to the subframe at the front (I wouldn't have thought so as it wouldn't make sense being attached to a suspension component; it's not a live axle). I can't see movement of the subframe affecting the diff that much, if at all, since its not directly connected and the plunge on the driveshafts would remove any possible movement in the way you diagram suggests IMO.

I also don't think that the body brace would do much on the Coupe as the shell is pretty stiff anyway, and (assuming you're meaning bracing the pins on the subframe) it wouldn't prevent the designed movement of the subframe through the bushings. Obviously if you have stiff/solid subframe bushes then the pins are the next to flex but as said above I dont think this would directly affect the diff.

[exdos]

I don't think the diff is attached to the subframe at the front (I wouldn't have thought so as it wouldn't make sense being attached to a suspension component; it's not a live axle). I can't see movement of the subframe affecting the diff that much, if at all, since its not directly connected and the plunge on the driveshafts would remove any possible movement in the way you diagram suggests IMO.

I also don't think that the body brace would do much on the Coupe as the shell is pretty stiff anyway, and (assuming you're meaning bracing the pins on the subframe) it wouldn't prevent the designed movement of the subframe through the bushings. Obviously if you have stiff/solid subframe bushes then the pins are the next to flex but as said above I dont think this would directly affect the diff.

The diff is NOT attached to the subframe; it's attached by brackets to the bodyshell. I haven't suggested otherwise either in words or in my diagrams. What I am suggesting , and my diagrams seek to show this, is, that any movement of the subframe will cause slight fore and aft movement of the wheels (not necessarily always equally on both sides) which will act as levers on the diff, thus causing slight twisting of the differential on its mountings, thereby putting strain on the relatively weak mountings. Eventually. this may produce metal fatigue of the mounting points resulting in tears and ultimate failure.

Tying the two subframe bolts together with a Strongstrut butt strut will considerably reduce any tendency of the subframe to move on the bolts. Fitting a body-brace to the butt strut will take this a step further and will prevent all movement of the suspension bolts, thus keeping the subframe bolts absolutely rigid. The purpose of a body-brace on an MC would not be to stiffen the bodyshell (and I doubt if it can do this either on a Z3 roadster either), but instead, it is to do what I've described above.

I know that you also have a butt strut fitted, but if you don't think my explanations are accurately describing how the butt strut actually works, then can you please enlighten me as to how it does work?

[c_w]

I don't think the diff is attached to the subframe at the front (I wouldn't have thought so as it wouldn't make sense being attached to a suspension component; it's not a live axle). I can't see movement of the subframe affecting the diff that much, if at all, since its not directly connected and the plunge on the driveshafts would remove any possible movement in the way you diagram suggests IMO.

I also don't think that the body brace would do much on the Coupe as the shell is pretty stiff anyway, and (assuming you're meaning bracing the pins on the subframe) it wouldn't prevent the designed movement of the subframe through the bushings. Obviously if you have stiff/solid subframe bushes then the pins are the next to flex but as said above I dont think this would directly affect the diff.

The diff is NOT attached to the subframe; it's attached by brackets to the bodyshell. I haven't suggested otherwise either in words or in my diagrams. What I am suggesting , and my diagrams seek to show this, is, that any movement of the subframe will cause slight fore and aft movement of the wheels (not necessarily always equally on both sides) which will act as levers on the diff, thus causing slight twisting of the differential on its mountings, thereby putting strain on the relatively weak mountings. Eventually. this may produce metal fatigue of the mounting points resulting in tears and ultimate failure.

Tying the two subframe bolts together with a Strongstrut butt strut will considerably reduce any tendency of the subframe to move on the bolts. Fitting a body-brace to the butt strut will take this a step further and will prevent all movement of the suspension bolts, thus keeping the subframe bolts absolutely rigid. The purpose of a body-brace on an MC would not be to stiffen the bodyshell (and I doubt if it can do this either on a Z3 roadster either), but instead, it is to do what I've described above.

I know that you also have a butt strut fitted, but if you don't think my explanations are accurately describing how the butt strut actually works, then can you please enlighten me as to how it does work?

I was speaking outloud re the diff being attached to the subframe rather than inferring you were saying it was. However, your diagram shows that the subframe movement would make the diff move but as I said driveshafts are designed to cope with all kinds of suspension angles wihtout affecting the diff so I can't see the subframe affecting it. The subframe, by design, is allowed to "float" on the 2 pins through the bushing, the trailing arms attached by further bushes also move but the diff is not affected by this movement (unless it was extreme movement beyond the designed movement limits of the suspension/driveshaft joint)

Any slight subframe movement you are suggesting that affects the diff pales into comparison against the amount of natural suspension/wheel travel that the driveshafts account for.

[exdos]

c_w,

I am aware that the prop shaft and drive shafts allow for play. But you've still not told me how the butt strut does it's work if you think my explanation is wrong?

[c_w]

c_w,

I am aware that the prop shaft and drive shafts allow for play. But you've still not told me how the butt strut does it's work if you think my explanation is wrong?


Tying the two subframe bolts together with a Strongstrut butt strut will considerably reduce any tendency of the subframe to move on the bolts. Fitting a body-brace to the butt strut will take this a step further and will prevent all movement of the suspension bolts, thus keeping the subframe bolts absolutely rigid. The purpose of a body-brace on an MC would not be to stiffen the bodyshell (and I doubt if it can do this either on a Z3 roadster either), but instead, it is to do what I've described above.

The butt struts job is to make the subframe location more "positive"; like the strut brace at the front, it's benefits are for handling by more positive suspension location. It doesn't alter the movement of the subframe other than holding the location (pins/studs) it attaches to more positively.

When I fitted some modified subframe bushes I noticed how flexible the "pins" are so bracing them is a good idea. The body brace you've drawn would probably brace them further as the butt strut mainly braces side to side so the handling may be slightly tighter (but I would say its OTT for what you'd probably notice driving the car), but I can't see how it can help the diff out.

If you fitted all these braces and used standard bushes you're still going to get the rather large amount of subframe movement due to the pliable standard bushes, so I would say that if you wanted to limit subframe movement you need to look at the bushes since the bracing isn't physically attaching to the subframe, but the body.

Looking through some american forums they have tried various subframe bushes, also packing them out above and below the subframe mounting points so it has no vertical or twisting movement but you get a lot of harshness from this. But again I'd say this is a handling mod.

[exdos]

It doesn't alter the movement of the subframe other than holding the location (pins/studs) it attaches to more positively.

Maybe you just don't understand what I write :wink: but that's precisely what Im saying.

When I fitted some modified subframe bushes I noticed how flexible the "pins" are so bracing them is a good idea.
See my comment above.

The body brace you've drawn would probably brace them further as the butt strut mainly braces side to side so the handling may be slightly more tighter, but I can't see how it can help the diff out.
You've already explained this to yourself in your first comment above :!:

By holding the location (pins/studs) it attaches to more positively (your words) you are creating fixed triangulation of the differential to the two ends of the subframe so that there is little or no movement of this fixed triangular relationship, as it really is intended to be. The moment that 2 points of the triangle (the siubframe pins) start to move there will be stress placed on the only fixed point of the triangular relationship, namely the differential on it's fixed mounts. It's interesting to note that BMW have produced the Z4 with a triangulated 2 part butt strut which keeps the subframe pins rigidly positioned, so I think my explanation must be correct.


If you fitted all these braces and used standard bushes you're still going to get the rather large amount of subframe movement due to the pliable standard bushes, so I would say that if you wanted to limit subframe movement you need to look at the bushes since the bracing isn't physically attaching to the subframe, but the body.

Looking through some american forums they have tried various subframe bushes, also packing them out above and below the subframe mounting points so it has no vertical or twisting movement but you get a lot of harshness from this. But again I'd say this is a handling mod.

The purpose of stiffer bushing around the subframe pins or packing out the OEM bushes is, in truth, an attempt to keep the subframe bolts permanently vertically fixed. Obviously when this is done, the bushes can no longer allow any "give" for the subframe, and as you say, there will be harshness of ride. Therefore, if you put all the pieces of this particular "jigsaw" together, you will realise that fitting a butt strut and body brace actaully keeps the subframe pins in a fixed position, thus allowing the OEM rubber bushes to allow a degree of movement of the subframe and the rear suspension, as intended. Do you get it yet :?:

[c_w]

The moment that 2 points of the triangle (the siubframe pins) start to move there will be stress placed on the only fixed point of the triangular relationship, namely the differential on it's fixed mounts..

Why would it do that?? The diff is seperate to the subframe and suspension, as said previously it's only connection is through the driveshafts.

What you're trying to propose [to prevent the diff fracturing mounts] doesn't make sense and would be a waste of time IMO.

The purpose of stiffer bushing around the subframe pins or packing out the OEM bushes is, in truth, an attempt to keep the subframe bolts permanently vertically fixed. Obviously when this is done, the bushes can no longer allow any "give" for the subframe, and as you say, there will be harshness of ride. Therefore, if you put all the pieces of this particular "jigsaw" together, you will realise that fitting a butt strut and body brace actaully keeps the subframe pins in a fixed position, thus allowing the OEM rubber bushes to allow a degree of movement of the subframe and the rear suspension, as intended. Do you get it yet

The pins are fixed in their repsective holes but there is slight flex which the butt strut should prevent (along with the standard bracing on to the sills). Packing out the bushes isn't to prevent something moving that doesn't move already (ie the pins), but to prevent the subframe moving up and down on the bushes so that the only part of the suspension that moves is the trailing arms. This is all for handling benefits. You can see just how much the subframe "floats" on the standard bushes if you rest and axle stand under it with the wieght of the car on it; the subframe sinks up a good few inches which significanly alters the location of the trailing arms which could perhaps happen under hard driving. The pins and bolts are all tight but the subframe moves on the bushes, irrespective of any bracing.

Do you get it yet? :lol:

[exdos]

Why would it do that?? The diff is seperate to the subframe and suspension, as said previously it's only connection is through the driveshafts.


Each time I get involved in a thread with you I vow to myself it will be the last time. You really do talk (type) in circles :? :(

We both know that the diff is separate from the subframe. It's the subframe bolts attached to the bodyshell and the differential attached to the same bodyshell that creates the triangulation, at the bodyshell. IF the subframe bolts were naturally held vertically rigid, then the subframe would be free to move slightly (mainly vertically) on the bushes and there would be no problem with either handling or diff mount failure, and the traingulation would remain fixed. HOWEVER because the subframe bolts can '"wobble" inside the OEM subframe bushes, the subframe can "slew" around, thus distorting the triangulation. I suggest that BMW didn't allow for this in the Z3 design, but realised the design fault and thus corrected it by making a triangulated butt strut in the Z4 platform.

Now, have you applied yourself to sorting out your suspension problem and stopped your butt strut scraping tarmac yet :?: :wink:

[spunkym]

LOL - It's the c_w and Exdos show! I think we're all more confused than ever now :lol:

I do love these little technical chats though 8) Personaly I think Exdos is right and c_w is not wrong :wink:

[BEN]

LOL - It's the c_w and Exdos show! I think we're all more confused than ever now :lol:

I do love these little technical chats though 8) Personaly I think Exdos is right and c_w is not wrong :wink:

i have a headache! could someone give me a brief idea of everything above :wink: :lol:

[steve1]

LOL - It's the c_w and Exdos show! I think we're all more confused than ever now :lol:

I do love these little technical chats though 8) Personaly I think Exdos is right and c_w is not wrong :wink:

i have a headache! could someone give me a brief idea of everything above :wink: :lol:

Here you go. :wink:

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=4223&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[c_w]

Why would it do that?? The diff is seperate to the subframe and suspension, as said previously it's only connection is through the driveshafts.


Each time I get involved in a thread with you I vow to myself it will be the last time. You really do talk (type) in circles :? :(



I don't type in circles I just repeat what I've said in the hope it's clearer :lol: :wink:

[c_w]

LOL - It's the c_w and Exdos show! I think we're all more confused than ever now :lol:

I do love these little technical chats though 8) Personaly I think Exdos is right and c_w is not wrong :wink:

i have a headache! could someone give me a brief idea of everything above :wink: :lol:

Exdos believes that by further bracing of the subframe pins - which after fitting the butt strut will have minial movement anyway [and this is just for suspension/handling benefits anyway IMO] - it will somehow have a positive effect on reducing the risk of tearing diff mounts and the boot floor.

I don't agree because the diff is a completely seperate entity from the subframe. What it needs are heavier duty diff mounting brackings, a double ear diff cover and maybe some plating along the rails under the boot floor.

[Brett]

I don't type in circles I just repeat what I've said in the hope it's clearer :lol: :wink:

Next thing we know you will be TYPING LOUDLY AND S L O W L Y in the vain hope that we might understand you better... :D

[c_w]

I don't type in circles I just repeat what I've said in the hope it's clearer :lol: :wink:

Next thing we know you will be TYPING LOUDLY AND S L O W L Y in the vain hope that we might understand you better... :D

Nope, no need to do that. Any repetition wasn't aimed at you anyway...

[Brett]

I don't type in circles I just repeat what I've said in the hope it's clearer :lol: :wink:

Next thing we know you will be TYPING LOUDLY AND S L O W L Y in the vain hope that we might understand you better... :D

Nope, no need to do that. Any repetition wasn't aimed at you anyway...

I was only kidding.... :roll:

[c_w]

I don't type in circles I just repeat what I've said in the hope it's clearer :lol: :wink:

Next thing we know you will be TYPING LOUDLY AND S L O W L Y in the vain hope that we might understand you better... :D

Nope, no need to do that. Any repetition wasn't aimed at you anyway...

I was only kidding.... :roll:

You should have been clearer :P :lol:

[exdos]

Exdos believes that by further bracing of the subframe pins - which after fitting the butt strut will have minimal movement anyway - it will somehow have a positive effect on reducing the risk of tearing diff mounts and the boot floor.

I agree with that statement. A case of "belts and braces" where the butt strut is the "belt" and the body-brace is just to be sure that the butt strut doesn't move at all. Over-engineering to prevent failure due to BMW's under-engineering.

I don't agree because the diff is a completely seperate entity from the subframe. What it needs are heavier duty diff mounting brackings, a double ear diff cover and maybe some plating along the rails under the boot floor.
Whilst I agree that the differential and subframe are completely different entities, the point that c_w just doesn't seem willing to accept is that there is actually a triangular relationship between the mounting point of the differential and the two subframe mounting bolts on the body shell and that movement of the subframe can distort the triangle made on sheet metal of the bodyshell, which after the passage of time may cause metal fatigue and tearing of the sheet metal of the differential mountings and/or other pars of the body shell in proximity of the points of attachment on the bodyshell itself.

I do not dispute that the welding of additional parts to the bodyshell to strengthen the obvious weakness is the best solution, as per the fix devised by Randy Forbes, which I've already referred to before in this thread. All I am saying is that the fitting of a butt strut and possibly a body brace as well, should go a long way to preventing the problem of diff mounts tearing and ripping of the boot floor, because fitting these bolt-on parts preserves and strengthens the triangular relationship between the differential and the subframe bolts.

I rest my case. :wink: :D

[Col]

I'm sure i've discussed this before on this forum but this is my view on the whole subframe diff tear situation.

To really understand this i think you need to have removed the subframe (to which the diff is attached) in order to understand what is going on under the car.

The very reason i replaced my subframe bushes was to try and reduce the potential of any diff tears and improve handling, and whilst undertaking this it's easy to see why such an occurance might happen.

The use of butt strutt in my opinion will not reduce the lateral twist of the subframe itself, what it does is reduce the twisting of the cars tub, which in itself is qutie stiff on the coupe.
This will obviously reduce the abount of twist placed on the subframe but trust me when i say this, the subframe on these cars is very flexible so it will be twisting long before the tub begins to twist and thus place pressure on the subframe.

When i removed the old rubber bushes it was at this stage that i realised that it didn't take a lot of my strength to cause the subframe to twist and flex (imagine what 300 hp does)

The original bushes by the way are a bu**er to remove, you do require the proper tools.

Anyway this twisting of the subframe is what i think places undue pressure on the single diff mount, if you can reduce the twisting of this then i think you will reduce the chances of diffs tearing from their mounts.

Also when the subframe twists so your wheel geometary will be out and reduce the handling ability of the car.

[c_w]

Col has cleared something up here which I think both I and Exdos have missed!



The diff is NOT attached to the subframe; it's attached by brackets to the bodyshell. I haven't suggested otherwise either in words or in my diagrams.

Exdos, I think we've both assumed that the diff isn't bolted to the suspension subframe? but it actually is, so yes reducing the movement of the subframe would be beneficial.

BUT you're diagram and your reasoning is based on the diff not being bolted to it so I still think that is wrong. However you may unwittingly be on the right track by trying to reduce subframe movement! However IMO, in order for the bracing to be effective, the bushes need to be pretty much solid for the extra body bracing to be worthwhile. BUT maybe reducing the natural damping movement of the subframe may put more stress on the rear bracket?? The stress is still going to be at the mounting points so I would still say the best best is to strengthen the brackets (ideally with a double eared diff plate)

The bolts no. "9" bolt to the two rear holes in the subframe.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/i/l/222.png
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/n/b/18.png

[Lee]

thats not an M coupe diagram!

[Col]

If you have ever compared the difference between ordinary rubber and polyurethane then you will know that there is a substantial difference in hardness, althougth i might add that fitting these doesn't make things too harsh as the suspenstion and shocks should be taking care of things.

The only real solution to this problem is twin ears on the diff and seam wealing instead of spot.

[Col]

thats not an M coupe diagram!

Looks pretty spot on to me

[c_w]

thats not an M coupe diagram!

What makes you think that? I got them off the www.realoem.com website (Z3/MCoupe/1999/RHD), they're usually pretty accurate I've found.

[c_w]

If you have ever compared the difference between ordinary rubber and polyurethane then you will know that there is a substantial difference in hardness, althougth i might add that fitting these doesn't make things too harsh as the suspenstion and shocks should be taking care of things.

The only real solution to this problem is twin ears on the diff and seam wealing instead of spot.

tbh I'm not sure why I assumed the diff isn't mounted to the subfrrame because when I fitted stiffer subframe mounts I noticed slightly more transmission NVH. I also now remember looking at the front of the diff and tapping the metal where it bolts to and thinking that "tin" surely can't cope with this much power because it really doesn't look that substantial. I think strengthening this area would help too.

[exdos]

I've dug my Bentley Z3 Manual out, and I should have done this earlier. I was wrong in stating that the differential is not connected to the subframe, because it is at the front. However the problem is even worse than I thought because the differential is also connected at the back to the bodyshell. :!: :!: :!: This means that there is still triangulation between the 2 mounting points of the diff on the subframe and one mounting point on the bodyshell. Therefore, any movement of the subframe will be transferred by the differential to place a greater strain on the diff mounting on the bodyshell. In other words, any movement of the subframe is fighting against the body shell where the differential itself is acting as the lever. All the more reason for fitting a butt strut and bodybrace, not just to improve handling, but also to keep the differential as restrained as possible in an almost fixed location.

Here are some clips from the Bentley manual.


http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/53Bentley3.jpg
http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/53Bentley2.jpg
http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/53Bentley1.jpg

[Ruaraidh]

Hi all,

Interesting thread!

The difference in movement between subframe and diff and the resulting strain produced can only be reacted by the stiffness of the floor (and those spot welds).

In which case, were this a racing type of application, you'd be not only looking for a brace forward as already mentioned but some method of triangulating internally (a la full racing roll cage type method) between the subframe pickup and the diff mount. That would remove the stress from the boot floor but would almost certainly require additional strengthening of the rear diff mount struture as (as the previous link has shown) it looks pretty weak.

Just one other thing to look for when looking for the right MC...

<scribbles>

[M3 Compact]

The MC subframe/diff mounting arrangement is identical to my compact.

We studied all of this carefully, as obviously, we need more strength than a road car.

I'm not familiar with the exhaust routing on an MC, but the compact exhaust is oval shaped and passes under the subframe. Other than resiting the ideally placed fuel tank, the only solution for us was to pass the exhaust through the subframe. :shock:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/M3Compact/DSC00446.jpg


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b187/332Ti/Rear20thAug.jpg

The subframe had to be extensively strengthened to do this, a consequence of this is increased shock loading on the subframe bushes/mounts.

To cater for the extra strain on the subframe bushes and mounts, the mounts were strengthened, Poly bushes were used and the tank guards were bolted rigidly to the body on the front mounts and the subframe for the rear mounts.

As well as all this, the whole rear end was seam-welded and a stronger diff bush was used, as well as Poly bushes in the strengthened rear arms.

http://www.bmwrallying.com/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_10614/A5.jpg

The result of all this work is a rear end set-up that's extremely rigid and strong, we were well satisfied with all this until it came to testing.

With only a few miles of testing the trailing arm bushes were absolutely destroyed, they were basically taking all the load as the only part that could 'give', a solid teflon bush can cope, but the end result is wholly inappropriate for a road car, the ride comfort is appalling and no way would anyone consider it acceptable for a road car.

Imo the standard rear end is a carefully calculated compromise.

There's a certain amount of 'give' in the subframe, its mountings/bushes, the diff mount, the trailing arms/bushes and the bodyshell, if you focus on strengthening individual aspects of its design, you're increasing the strain on other parts of the overall system and running the risk of causing failure elsewhere.

'All or nothing' imo, and 'all' isn't a suitable solution for an MC road car.

[exdos]

Simon,

A very interesting post


Imo the standard rear end is a carefully calculated compromise.

If there are cases of diff mount failure and the boot floor tearing apart, I'm not so sure the compromise was that carefully calculated. :wink:


There's a certain amount of 'give' in the subframe, its mountings/bushes, the diff mount, the trailing arms/bushes and the bodyshell, if you focus on strengthening individual aspects of its design, you're increasing the strain on other parts of the overall system and running the risk of causing failure elsewhere.

'All or nothing' imo, and 'all' isn't a suitable solution for an MC road car.

IMHO, all you are doing when fitting a butt strut and body brace is ensuring that the subframe bolts are located in a fixed position in the vertical so that there is minimal horizontal movement of the subframe. As I see it, the advantage of this is two fold. Firstly, by keeping the subframe fixed in the horizontal plane, the differential should not act as a lever on the rear diff mount connected to the bodyshell thus causing minimal strain on the parts of attachment. Secondly, by keeping the subframe in a more or less fixed horizontal position you are preserving the resting suspension geometry at all times so that the car will handle better.

Otherwise I think you are correct and I would hesitate to put polyurethane bushes on the subframe and trailing arms, especially now that I'm running KW V3 set up somewhat harsher than OEM suspension. You can over-egg the pudding by seeking to uprate everything.

[spunkym]

Interesting points indeed. It does make me wonder somewhat if the lack of rigidty in the roadster actually takes some stress away from the subframe. As far as I'm aware there have been no reports of sub-frame failure on the roadsters.

If it is indeed all a compromise then I think we need to consider as many angles as possible before strengthening various parts of the underbody in order that we maintain suspension / chassis compliancy.

[M3 Compact]

Simon,

A very interesting post


Imo the standard rear end is a carefully calculated compromise.

If there are cases of diff mount failure and the boot floor tearing apart, I'm not so sure the compromise was that carefully calculated. :wink:


There's a certain amount of 'give' in the subframe, its mountings/bushes, the diff mount, the trailing arms/bushes and the bodyshell, if you focus on strengthening individual aspects of its design, you're increasing the strain on other parts of the overall system and running the risk of causing failure elsewhere.

'All or nothing' imo, and 'all' isn't a suitable solution for an MC road car.


I understand your point Exdos.

My point in a nutshell...

There's a fair amount of underisable action occuring at the rear end. :(

BMW have distributed the undesirable action fairly equally imo. Some diff carriers have failed, some diff rear mounting points, some bodyshell creeping/cracking. Is there a single, repetitive weak point?

If the 'Butt Brace' transfers enough of the 'undesirable action' far enough forward to dispel, it must weigh a bit?

[exdos]

If the 'Butt Brace' transfers enough of the 'undesirable action' far enough forward to dispel, it must weigh a bit?

The StrongStrut butt strut that I have is made of 2" x 0.5" billet aluminium and weighs in the order of about 4 lbs. I think the weight penalty is definitely worth it for the improvment in handling that it gives. My concern about the part is that it has a rectangular profile and therefore is unaerodynamic. It's my intention to enlist this part as a kind of under-car wing to create downforce.

The StrongStrut bodybrace is a heavy part though, because it's made of steel and weighs 24lbs. If it's sole purpose is to stop the butt strut moving fore and aft, then I think the part could be made of aluminium. I already have some aluminium "L" profile to make my own design body brace which will weigh about 8lbs in total.

[c_w]

Like M3 Compact said, the movement of the subframe is by design; all of movement (except the very slightest of movement) is from the bushing in the subframe and suspension (the other tinest movement is from chassis which can be reduced by bracing it, eg. the butt strut etc). If the excess movement of the subframe IS the main cause then the stiffer subframe bushes will limit the movent but as M3Compact said again, this can put stress on other areas.

On my car I have standard bushes with "inserts" to fill the gaps in the bush, this seems to be a good half-way house between the two problems (subframe movement with standard bushes vs no subframe movement with solid bushes and problems elsewhere). NVH is slightly higher but the handling feels so much tighter because the subframe is moving around a lot less.

However, IMO the main problem is still the weak rear diff fixing and boot floor.

[exdos]

If the problem of failed diff mounts and boot floor tears is actually caused by flexure of the metal of the subframe itself, then fitting a butt strut, or fitting uprated bushes, or packing out the OEM bushes will limit the movement of the subframe on the subframe bolts but will do nothing to stop the flexure of the metal of the subframe, if this is the root of the problem

So far, we've only discussed ways of tightening up the subframe mounts and strengthening the diff mounts and boot floor, perhaps instead, we should direct our attention to strengthening the subframe itself and allowing a more rigid subframe to move about in its OEM bushes without any attempt at restraint :?:

[Bob]

I had the same problem with my M Coupe down here in Australia. All M Coupes in Australia (all 27 of them!) are S50 1999 models, so it was a pleasant surprize that the dealer fixed the problem at no charge some 6 years down the track. I didn't even buy the car from a BMW dealer, I bought it second hand privately.

[nemesis]

I simply mentioned to BMW that I was shocked they used spot welding for something that had the LSD mounted to(i also mentioend for structural parts spot welding was illegal in the UK wasnt it?), they quickly (withing 1 day) had the car in for a 2 weeks for a full repair, based on my independant survey of the work carried out, gave me a BMW car for the duration of the work and couldnt be more appologetic. but I had to give them some sh^& to start with, now its awesome!

Neme

[vaninblack]

Just got my MC back from BMW after it suffered subframe failure before Christmas - that was the cause of the vibration noise from the rear. Vibration rapidly became much worse, culminating in the diff visibly hanging too low.

My car has no warranty and I do not service it at BMW but I got the RAC to transport the car to the last BMW dealership which serviced it. Thanks to advice from Nemesis, I was all ready with my ammunition but didn't need it. A couple of hours after the RAC dropped the car off, I got a call from the dealership to say that they'd put in a goodwill claim for a whole new boot floor, trailing arms, diff cover etc. BMW inspected the car the next day and agreed the claim - apparently almost £5k at bargain BMW prices.

1.2 Fiesta :-? as a courtesy car but never mind, finally got the MC back and it seems great. In fact, it's spooky because all of the creaking and rattling trim issues have been fixed as well, so it's all a bit quiet in the back!

Anyway, gutting to be without an MC for 3 weeks but good to know that BMW are still fixing this problem under goodwill - 1998 car.

Thanks to the forum - and thanks to Nemesis for his advice by email - if I hadn't read about it on the forum I might have thought it was one of those bitter pills you had to swallow!

[Wav]

Interesting thread. I have the same issue, will post some pics up soon. If possible can someone send me any ammo they have in their inbox that could help me out? Nemesis could you perhaps forward me the e-mail you sent to vaninblack, if you can find it. My e-mail address is

paulwavish AT hotmail dot com

I think Hexagon is the nearest dealer to me and if they have had to do this fix before, then I'm guessing this should be my first port of call? or should I ring up the dealership that did the last service?

Am a bit gutted because I was meant to be going on a road trip with my gf for a week next Friday in the MC

Ta,

Paul

[Wav]

As promised here are the pics, not a pretty sight.

from inside the boot
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3188/2580171485_08cdce067a.jpg

from underneath
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/2580166675_41efd633d4.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3137/2580168317_1910732387.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3256/2580169893_9303b616d5.jpg

It looks like the boot floor has cracked all over the place on the near side around the roll bar mount, and the diff mount has failed too. Also many of the spot welds have broken away.

Paul:yikes:

[c_w]

That looks bad :shocked:, particualrly the whole area that's dropped down with anti roll bar mount. Thank looks more like the metal has just sheared rather than spot welds failing. The damage in the boot; is that visible just by lifting up the end piece of trim or the front half?

[Wav]

Yep, the metal has sheared along the joins. It is easily visable once you remove the two piece carpeted floor and look under the sound deadening. The floor has sunk a little, this will inturn mean the diff will be sitting lower than it should. All in all a rather large surprise considering I only fitted the rogue rear top mounts less than a month ago and it definitely wasn't like that then, well not to that extent anyway.

Paul

[c_w]

Had/have you been driving the car hard or over bumpy roads or anything? any hard launches?

[Wav]

Had/have you been driving the car hard or over bumpy roads or anything? any hard launches?

Nope, I have been driving really gently because the suspension had felt horrid. I think what did it was a fully laden camping trip to wales, pulling off from some lights the rear sounded like it had bottomed out as it went over a dip in the road. I have suspicions that it may have been cracked for a while and the combinaton of the soft worn rear struts and all the camping gear in the back caused the floor to shear along its seams. It's not like I was carrying a boot full of lead or anything though.

Cheers,

Paul

[c_w]

Nope, I have been driving really gently because the suspension had felt horrid. I think what did it was a fully laden camping trip to wales, pulling off from some lights the rear sounded like it had bottomed out as it went over a dip in the road. I have suspicions that it may have been cracked for a while and the combinaton of the soft worn rear struts and all the camping gear in the back caused the floor to shear along its seams. It's not like I was carrying a boot full of lead or anything though.

Cheers,

Paul

Maybe the bottoming out did fracture something? (although it shouldn't reall break the car as it should ride on the bump stops), but I do find these cars have insufficient bump stops and will scrape the ground before hitting the bump stops. Just looks so bad, hopefully it can be repaired without too much trouble, but I suspect it might need a lot of stripping down to do properly.

[mansfa]

oh dear! just checked mine, seems it has a small crack on the passenger side...will be one the phone to BMW first thing tomorrow...

[Wav]

Well I dropped the car off with Hexagon BMW on Monday evening. It is booked in to be looked at by the bodyshop today. I had a quick chat with the body shop manager on Monday evening and he did admit that they'd had done one MC under goodwill and more worrying quite a few e46s with similar issues. The manager seemed pretty reasonable and had said that all claims so far had gone through. Once inspected they will send the pics and their evaluation to BMW UK for consideration.

For now I'm just keeping my fingers and toes crossed.

Paul

[DavidC]

Eeek, I think I'm gonna check mine this weekend just settle my mind.

Scary scary thought.

[simon768622]

When I read this post, I ran straight out to the car park at work and checked...all ok!!

[mansfa]

mine goes into BMW Battersea tomorrow morning. Will let you know. Will have a chat with the service guy when I drop it off, they have been quite reasonable in the past - fingers crossed!

[DavidC]

Sod waiting till the weekend, I'm checking this as soon as I finish work.......I thought Coop paranoia was reserved for Fiat Coupes (I'm allowed to say that, I've owned one!) not BMW M Coupes!!!

[h4pry]

Mansfa and Wav...Any updates on this?

It would be really helpful for owners that suffer this problem in the future, if more info could be posted relating to the out come of the FOC claims thus far. Specifically cars that are out of the AUC cover.

I'm sure there must be a goodwill code that is applied to this fault - if so it would be good to post it on this thread. Perhaps even a scan of the paperwork / invoice confirming that the work has been done as goodwill.

If BMW have done it once, then they have set a precident.

[h4pry]

Due to the importance of this thread and its relevance to most MC owners I am going to sticky it for a few weeks so that it can be suitably updated.

Hopefully we'll be able to add it to Coupe Fan's thread regarding successfull warranty claims.

Cheers

[mansfa]

Update 19/06:

BMW dont seem to think that the welds have failed on the bootfloor, erm, I saw three that have....?

They have obviously found a raft of other faults:
-Clutch, worn out (replaced 7000 miles ago)
-new shocks (I dont concur)
-new top mounts, front and rear (replaced 3000 miles ago)

they were still compling the list, in short the car is unroadworthly, despite it undergoing a suspension overhaul 3000 miles ago - cowboys?

Am going to have word with the service bloke when he gets back to me.

[MGR]

Update 19/06:

BMW dont seem to think that the welds have failed on the bootfloor, erm, I saw three that have....?

They have obviously found a raft of other faults:
-Clutch, worn out (replaced 7000 miles ago)
-new shocks (I dont concur)
-new top mounts, front and rear (replaced 3000 miles ago)

they were still compling the list, in short the car is unroadworthly, despite it undergoing a suspension overhaul 3000 miles ago - cowboys?

Am going to have word with the service bloke when he gets back to me.


Where about are you based ? I know a few decent BMW garages in my area that are very good.

[mansfa]

Central london....

would appreciate any suggestions of BMW dealers with experience of this car - these guys arent inspiring confidence.

[wadh0070]

Central london....

would appreciate any suggestions of BMW dealers with experience of this car - these guys arent inspiring confidence.

When I bought mine, from a bloke in Clapham, I spoke to BMW Battersea, and they never got the chance to look at the car (the BMW authorised check thing), as I was pretty happy I was dealing with someone who wouldn't have been able to identify an MC from a line-up ...

Jez

[mansfa]

Give him his due he was precise in his quotations, which rapidly crept up...i'll have him fix a few minor things and then take the car to Hexagon for a second opinion....

[h4pry]

Give him his due he was precise in his quotations, which rapidly crept up...i'll have him fix a few minor things and then take the car to Hexagon for a second opinion....

Had you not noticed these other faults? Does the car have a comprehensive service history?

[MGR]

Central london....

would appreciate any suggestions of BMW dealers with experience of this car - these guys arent inspiring confidence.

hmm probably a bit far for you but sytners in sunningdale have mine in regularly and there are a few others that go there a lot. Once they had 2 phoenix in at the same time !

[c_w]

FRONT top mounts too? hmmm these don't often "go" like the rears. Why are they checking for other faults when the boot floor fault is what you took it in for?

[cragg711220]

Evening gents,
Well, you can add me to the growing list...

I checked on Friday after reading this thread. My diff bracket looks ok (not cracked) but my boot floor is being pulled down by the diff, spot welds have failed and the floor panel is starting to tear. See link to picture:

http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bootfloorgn6.jpg

I went to BMW Stratstone Milton Keynes and spoke to the 'Bodyshop Advisor' - nice guy and seemed to be on my side, I made it clear that I was aiming for a 'good will' repair by bmw uk. The outcome was that the regional manager would have a look at it on 23rd July and give me a decision, idealy it would be sooner.

So, in short......I need ammo
Wav, mansfa, vaninblack, nemesis please can you forward information from your experiences, it would be much appreciated. Job numbers, dealerships, names of bmw employees you have dealt with. etc.

craig dot gardiner at forceindiaf1 dot com

I'll be sure to update you with any progress.

Many thanks,
Craig

[coupe fan]

I am most definitely no expert but that looks like it has been welded before.

[cragg711220]

Yep, my thoughts also.

[cragg711220]

....on the welding, not the expert part, ha.

[exdos]

I am most definitely no expert but that looks like it has been welded before.

I would agree. It certainly looks as though someone has also sprayed paint over the rear seam.

[MCOUP]

exdos is correct, you can also see some welding marks along the side seam too... and they get painted over with red paint.

best of luck!

cheers,

richie

[mansfa]

oh dear, that does look messy! Mine has three broken welds, that looks like it's been welded before and sprayed over.

Going to have a word with the service manager tomorrow when I collect the car.

wait out

[cragg711220]

yeah let me know how it goes.

wrt the welding/spraying, I'm hoping it will add to my argument: i.e "look it's been re-welded and still failed - cut the floor out and fit an entire new one please. Now where are the keys to my z4mc courtesy car?" :lol:

[MGR]

Now where are the keys to my z4mc courtesy car?" :lol:

/mini cooper :lol:

[mansfa]

Update:

Took the car back to BMW on saturday. Had the service guy look at it, by chance the mechanic walked past and took a look, stright away he diagnosed the failed welds ( not sure how he missed them first time round....) and put it up on a ramp. They have taken some photos and have submitted the claim to BMW, fingers crossed.

The floor doesnt seem to have cracked like some people have posted, it's the welds that have come apart....

[Wav]

After dropping the car off at Hexagon BMW nearly two weeks ago, BMW UK finally agreed to cover 100% of the claim last Friday. I have just picked up the courtesy car today, 1.25l fiesta with 10 miles on the clock.... it isn't a mini but at least I should be able to get a bike in the back of it:hurray:

The bodyshop reception manager has been very good and estimates the car will take 4-5 weeks to put right, which includes 2 weeks to wait for a slot. Am now looking to see what sort of economy I can get out of the fezza :thumbsup::o

Paul

[BEN]

After dropping the car off at Hexagon BMW nearly two weeks ago, BMW UK finally agreed to cover 100% of the claim last Friday. I have just picked up the courtesy car today, 1.25l fiesta with 10 miles on the clock.... it isn't a mini but at least I should be able to get a bike in the back of it:hurray:

The bodyshop reception manager has been very good and estimates the car will take 4-5 weeks to put right, which includes 2 weeks to wait for a slot. Am now looking to see what sort of economy I can get out of the fezza :thumbsup::o

Paul

great news!

[h4pry]

After dropping the car off at Hexagon BMW nearly two weeks ago, BMW UK finally agreed to cover 100% of the claim last Friday. I have just picked up the courtesy car today, 1.25l fiesta with 10 miles on the clock.... it isn't a mini but at least I should be able to get a bike in the back of it:hurray:

The bodyshop reception manager has been very good and estimates the car will take 4-5 weeks to put right, which includes 2 weeks to wait for a slot. Am now looking to see what sort of economy I can get out of the fezza :thumbsup::o

Paul

WAV this is great news. Congratullations.

I know it's a big ask but can you scan the paperwork (obviously blocking out personal info) so that we can add the specifics to this thread?

[Wav]

WAV this is great news. Congratullations.

I know it's a big ask but can you scan the paperwork (obviously blocking out personal info) so that we can add the specifics to this thread?

I will do once I get some, I've only got the courtesy car form so far.

Cheers,

Paul (very relieved that he doesn't need to spend the next 5 weekends welding, grinding, filling and painting!)

[Rags]

Paul (very relieved that he doesn't need to spend the next 5 weekends welding, grinding, filling and painting!)


You might make a better job of it than the cowboys @ Hexagon:cornut::cornut::cornut::cornut::cornut::co rnut::cornut::cornut:

[h4pry]

I will do once I get some, I've only got the courtesy car form so far.

Cheers,



Thanks Paul.:thumbsup:

[pdwarren]

It would be very useful to compile a list with details of cases where BMW UK have coughed up, including:

- Mileage and age of car
- Full BMW service history vs indie servicing
- Had the car been repaired before
- What fix was done (new boot floor vs re-welded, etc.)

Although BMW UK seem to have been good to-date, I suspect that this won't continue indefinitely as the cars get older, and a comprehensive list of "test cases" will be a useful tool for anyone trying to get an agreement in the future.

Paul

[cragg711220]

Yes I agree. This would without doubt help me. I'm booked in for an inspection later this month, so this info would be very usefull.

Cheers,
Craig

[h4pry]

Yes I agree. This would without doubt help me. I'm booked in for an inspection later this month, so this info would be very usefull.

Cheers,
Craig


Are you still driving your car with cracked boot floor?

[cragg711220]

yep. But taking it easy on the throttle.

[h4pry]

yep. But taking it easy on the throttle.


Could this worsen the problem though? Is it worth the risk to make things worse?

Feather that accelerator pedal.:D

[mansfa]

I'm waiting for an answer from BMW on mine, it is not being driven.

[h4pry]

I'm waiting for an answer from BMW on mine, it is not being driven.

Good decision IMO.

Mansfa and Wav...Any updates on this?

It would be really helpful for owners that suffer this problem in the future, if more info could be posted relating to the out come of the FOC claims thus far. Specifically cars that are out of the AUC cover.

I'm sure there must be a goodwill code that is applied to this fault - if so it would be good to post it on this thread. Perhaps even a scan of the paperwork / invoice confirming that the work has been done as goodwill.

If BMW have done it once, then they have set a precident.

As per ^^ please keep us posted with BMW documentation. It'll be really usefull.

[mansfa]

Interestingly on mine it's only the welds that have failed or so it seems, the actual boot floor hasnt sheared like some...

[cragg711220]

Could this worsen the problem though? Is it worth the risk to make things worse?

Feather that accelerator pedal.:D

If I had another car then yes I would use it, but unfortunatly I don't. I've kept an eye on it and it hasn't got any worse. I wouldn't be suprised if it was in that condition when I bourght it.

[mansfa]

Mine is going in soon to be repaired by BMW, they have kindly agreed to cover repair costs 100%.

What a massive relief, I can soon start enjoying the car again.

I presume the repair wont be subject to the same risk of failure as the original..?

A

[Rags]

Mine is going in soon to be repaired by BMW, they have kindly agreed to cover repair costs 100%.

What a massive relief, I can soon start enjoying the car again.

I presume the repair wont be subject to the same risk of failure as the original..?

A

You should bloody well hope not!:cornut:

[cragg711220]

Just wanted to bump the thread.....

Can people who have had this failure please pm me with any information that could help my case against bmw. Got an inspection at the local stealer this month and need as much ammo as possible!(current ammo levels are slim to none)

[h4pry]

Just wanted to bump the thread.....

Can people who have had this failure please pm me with any information that could help my case against bmw. Got an inspection at the local stealer this month and need as much ammo as possible!(current ammo levels are slim to none)

I'm too a little bit dissapointed that several owners have claimed FOC repairs but not provided any further info.

[mansfa]

mine is still in progress, when it's complete, I have the keys in my hand and I'm happy with the repair i'll post. wait out!

[Wav]

Still waiting on mine too, when I rang last week they still hadn't even started on the car :mad5:

Paul

[vaninblack]

I'm too a little bit dissapointed that several owners have claimed FOC repairs but not provided any further info.

Perhaps those owners rarely click on a sticky? I guess 'sticky' by its very nature invokes a sense of the unchanging and the uninteresting - you'd expect posting rules or some gay stuff to be in a sticky. That's not a criticism of this being a sticky, I just happen to almost subconsciously ignore stickies and look down to the first non-sticky post.

Has anyone actually had a boot floor failure that BMW has not fixed for free? The whole boot floor issue is pretty sordid and maybe I just got lucky but the impression I got from all involved was that it's a free fix, end of story.

I did not receive any documentation (I did of course have an independent assess the new boot floor etc.) and was told this was standard for goodwill fixes but I could get documentation through the warranty department if required (my car did not have a warranty).

Maybe the 'goodwill code' works that they do the work as 'warranty work' even though the car is not under warranty?

Since I haven't wanted to sell my car since the work was done, I've never requested a copy of the documentation.

If anyone has a claim refused by BMW then feel free to PM me and I'll try and get a copy of the docs from the warranty department.

[h4pry]

Maybe the 'goodwill code' works that they do the work as 'warranty work' even though the car is not under warranty?

Since I haven't wanted to sell my car since the work was done, I've never requested a copy of the documentation.

If anyone has a claim refused by BMW then feel free to PM me and I'll try and get a copy of the docs from the warranty department.

Thanks for your feedback...Perhaps they deliberately don't return the car with paperwork for the very reason of attempting to keep the job low profile?

How many miles had your car done prior to the failure?

[vaninblack]

Thanks for your feedback...Perhaps they deliberately don't return the car with paperwork for the very reason of attempting to keep the job low profile?

How many miles had your car done prior to the failure?

Mileage: 60,117
Age: 8 years 2 months
FBMWSH: No
Repaired before: Yes*
Type of repair: New boot floor

*Apparently the car appeared to have had additional welding in that area

[damien]

Hi all good news,my car has been at Syntner BMW bodyshop waiting 4 an engineer to inspect my boot floor and yesterday i was told the repairs will be done free of charge,the work will take 3 weeks and i've been given a 1 series loan car until its ready, RESULT!! :hurray:

[cragg711220]

Some good news from me also, I had an inspection by a couple of guys at Stratstone Milton Keynes, they took some pictures and seemed pretty confident of a full repair from BMW UK. Im expecting an answer next week so I'll keep you updated!

[mansfa]

My bootfloor has been repaired by BMW Park Lane Battersea, all covered under goodwill.

Mileage: 74k

Service history: complete, but not all BMW, some munich legends etc...

Mods: Front top mounts swapped round, H&R lowering springs.

Hope this helps

[Wav]

Well I finally got my car back today from Hexagon. They do appear to have done a great job, but it did take them 4 months in total :boxing_smiley: I received no paperwork, but apparently I should be getting a warranty receipt sent to me once it has been written. The only proof of work I have are some photos that were taken half way through the job, the pics (see attached) are great and really do show how much work is involved in replacing the entire boot floor.

Car details:

Mileage: 105,000
Age: 8 1/2 years
FBMWSH: yes apart from one indy for an inspection II service
Repaired before: No
Type of repair: New boot floor

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/2910117536_766e99be58_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3270/2909269787_2bdb952f1b_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/2909270133_21225b63d2_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/2910117174_cfb4b8ffea_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3239/2909269615_c77cf66068_o.jpg

Paul:driving:

[cragg711220]

Good news, I got a call from BMW today saying that BMW UK has approoved the repairs on a good will basis. Car goes in in Wednesday.
In a word - relieved!

[BEN]

cracking results guys!

i want mine to go too, then my rear will be as clean as that!

[MGR]

WOW that IS a lot of work. Don't want to have to be paying for that - would bring down another bank !

Do they always go along the sides or can it be anywhere ?

[cragg711220]

Mine is due back from Wayside Milton keynes in the 1st week of November so I'll get some updates for you. Although I may get a chance to have a look at it this weekend.

Courtesy car is a vw polo, not too bad, 400 miles on the clock.

If anyone hasn't checked for this problem I recommend you give it 5 minutes of your time, getting the repairs done under 'good will' from BMW seems to be a formality for this problem so it's well worth doing.

How come this thread isn't sticky anymore?

[Jules]

Evening - just joined and spent most of the evening reading this thread - great info thanks and very reasuring after having joined the "cracked mouning" club earlier today.

The wife drives a Z3M (2000 with 6oK) Roadster (trust having a ragtop doesn't exclude us from joining your forum?

Had a nasty creaking noise start a couple of days ago whenever she changed gear. I took it for a blast up Cheddar Gorge (local testing ground) and thought the rear axel was about to drop off so soon calmed down!

On inspection the diff-mount has split right through. No sign of floor seperation - maybe owing to the flexible nature of the roadster?

Took it to Dick Lovitts Bristol today at 2 hrs notice and they took a look within 30 mins (good so far) They said they had never seen this fault before but took photos and I should get a response from HQ within 48 hours - I'll let you know the result but thanks for the ammo!

JUles

[c_w]

I think Broccers(?) had this problem with is. Is if the diff back plate (aluminium) that has broken or the metal hanger from the boot floor?

[speed8]

If it's the diff back plate thats broken then I'm sure I've read on one of the American Z3 Roadster forums that this is quite a common issue and a number of people have upgraded theirs to a 2 ear mount instead.

[Broccers]

I think Broccers(?) had this problem with is. Is if the diff back plate (aluminium) that has broken or the metal hanger from the boot floor?

For info if this helps;

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4506&highlight=diff

Pic

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/271Diff.jpg

Was fixed for just over 100 quid I think.

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//500/271Diff_001.jpg

[Jules]

Thanks but it is the rear crossmember that the diff bolts onto that has literally cracked in two and pulled the boot floorpan away from the welds. BMW have told me they will not even contribute to the repairs as it is out of warrentee.

I've had the job done locally for £180.00 - a great job and much less than I thought as dropping the diff is quite simple and we dod'nt habe to remove drive shafts.

I'm still pursuing BMW as I think this is a design flaw that should have been subject to a recall - watch this space.............

[cragg711220]

Just as a bit of an update, mine should be finished in the next couple of weeks. I've seen it a couple of times in the body shop and it's amazng what a massive job it is. Literally there are no two things joined together rearward of the gear stick!

Really happy with the work that's been done - the panel work, paint etc, they even changed the subframe and diff bushes.
Can't wait to get it back.

They have documented and photographed each stage of the repairs so I'll post them up when I get them.

[Ben Taylor]

Arrgh.... I had my car over my brother pit on Monday to locate the cause of a disconcerting knocking/squeaking noise from the n/s rear suspension. I brief inspection revealed the boot floor/subframe nightmare which I have subsequently read all about in this thread.

I dropped the car off at my local dealership (Dick Lovett in Bristol) on Wednesday and have just called to chase them up with a response.

They have just told me that it doesn't look like BMW will pay for the repair as the car is over 10 years old. I purchased the car (Z3M Coupe reg 1/1/99) in 2004 from a main dealer as a used and approved with 28,000 miles recorded. It now has only 73,000 miles recorded.

It seems that BMW have repaired higher mileage cars previously but I can't find any information about cars over 10 years old.

Has anyone please got any advice for me or experience with repairs to a car of this age?

[Wav]

Unfortunately I think that now some of the cars have crossed the 10 year old barrier, and with the added pressure of the 'credit crunch', it'll be unlikely that they will continue to cover it. It is a real shame that such a latent defect can go un-addressed, but it appears BMW like to do it this way to make it appear that they make 'reliable' and 'solid' cars. When in reality they just repair and cover up the faults under warranty and goodwill when the cars are relatively new.

I would try and go higher up in the BMW chain to see if they change their stance, your car is clearly on the cusp with a relatively low mileage and a good service history so I'm sure it is worth a punt.

Good luck,

Paul

[maph]

I hope you manage to get this sorted by BMW under goodwill, I would push them hard on the basis of the welds being inadequate and not fit for purpose at time of build regardless of the current age.

There is a suggestion previously in this tread that the welds used were not legal which could be looking into.

If BMW were repairing cars at 8.5 to 9 years old with over 100K it would seem resonable to hope for goodwill on 10.4 at 73K. If age and corrosion was a contributing factor in these failures it would see one thing but as it seems clearly to be a design/ manufacturing issue I think regardless of age you have a good case.

Dick Lovett in Bristol do not get top marks for being co-operative with this sort of thing....could be worth contacting the dealer that you purchased it from in 2004.

I know your car well and often walk past it on the way into work. I have recently bought a black S plate as well making yours slightly less unique in Bristol (sorry). I am keen to know how you get on as the subframe issue is one of my concerns along with the vanos!

Best of luck!

[cragg711220]

Mine is 4/1999 and was reparied in October 08.
My advice would be to try another dealer and see what they say. Find a dealer that has experience with the issue and will deal with it as a formaility.

Good luck!

[Ben Taylor]

Thanks guys, I'm speaking to the 'regional customer services manager' on Monday so will report back then...

[Barstool Racer]

I had my m coupe 1999 104,000 miles boot floor replaced in end of march under goodwill . Had to go to two different dealers and push the warranty guy very hard he first said to old and too many miles . forced him to put a claim in and bmw came back and they would mostly cover the cost under goodwill . They paid for the labour and boot floor and i had to pay for sealant and paint . Total cost for me was £250 and only took a month to do . I got paper work from the bodyshop but not bmw . hope this might help ?

['Yadi]

Hi folks

Just got around to checking the boot out on mine before it goes into local dealer for some warranty work on bits and pieces.

I've got two layers of material to deal with once I get the innermost board off, I assume the thick layer of foam (which is starting to crumble and fall apart) is sound dampening of some sort which lifts away easily enough. There's another thin sheet layer fixed to the boot floor though which I assume will be hiding any signs of weld spot problems. Is it supposed to be there and what's it for?

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt227/yadiyadiyadi/photo.jpg

I've got running lengthwise what are almost like thick brushstroke of sealant or finish down each side - is this the factory finish or does it imply some repair work has been done already?

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt227/yadiyadiyadi/photo2.jpg

Cheers

[Wav]

Hi folks

Just got around to checking the boot out on mine before it goes into local dealer for some warranty work on bits and pieces.

I've got two layers of material to deal with once I get the innermost board off, I assume the thick layer of foam (which is starting to crumble and fall apart) is sound dampening of some sort which lifts away easily enough. There's another thin sheet layer fixed to the boot floor though which I assume will be hiding any signs of weld spot problems. Is it supposed to be there and what's it for?

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt227/yadiyadiyadi/photo.jpg

I've got running lengthwise what are almost like thick brushstroke of sealant or finish down each side - is this the factory finish or does it imply some repair work has been done already?

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt227/yadiyadiyadi/photo2.jpg

Cheers


Looks like the standard OE boot to me. On a good note, it looks like it isn't broken from what I can see.

Paul

[c_w]

Yep looks normal to me. The stuff stuck to the floor is sound deadening, it probably stops resonance better than the thicker sound insulation on top. Most cars have this all over the floor of the car.

['Yadi]

Thanks fellas :thumbsup:
That's reassuring (and my learning process continues)

[Jonttt]

Guys, my first post on here but I hope you don't mind a Z3m Roadster joining the party :driving:

I have just been through the cracked diff mount repair free of charge with BMW and full details can be found here:

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19264&start=0

I posted this up originally to understand BMW's stance now that these cars are routinely getting over 10 years or 100,000 miles.

Since having mine repaired earlier in the year I have been contacted by numerous owners who continue to have mixed response from BMW UK (ranging from your cars too old, to no problem sir when would you like us to pick the car up), however the majority have had a +ve response albeit patience and the right dealer seem required (some people have waited over 6 weeks to get the go ahead from BMW UK).

I have even been contacted by non ///M owners who now have this problem and one has just this week been given the OK for a free repair from BMW UK.

Anyway thought it would be useful on hear as well.

I'm like a kid in a candy shop now I have found a new forum (and a few familiar tags :hurray:), a few late nights reading methinks :yesnod:

[ragerover]

well it had to happen

took the boot cover up and the tool tray out 2 weeks ago and there it was a 2" split along the seam. It wasnt twisted or ripped like some of the others on here (guess it would only have been a matter of time) looks like a couple of spot welds had failed.:mad5:

considered just getting it seam welded myself but thought as i work away and wasnt going to use the car i`d run it into the local main stealers. I was prepared for a fight:boxing_smiley: and pm`d a few who have had simillar issues on here.... some were more helpfull than others

got a phone call 1st week saying the area manager was coming to look at it then a call today saying it would be done FOC as a good will gesture by BMW. I asked if they were going to seam weld it but no they are replacing the whole floor. ill post more details when i here more:thumbsup:

only thing is whats stopping it happening again
but as far as im concerned if they fix it once theyll have to fix it again(in another 9 yrs

[Dr. N]

the area manager was coming to look at it then a call today saying it would be done FOC as a good will gesture by BMW.

That's amazing. You got photos of him playing away from home or something?! :lol:

Well done...

[ragerover]

That's amazing. You got photos of him playing away from home or something?! :lol:

Well done.... Cheers I used to take my e46 M3 there for warranty work they've allways been good got the m3 serviced there to keep it in warranty too

[damien]

well it had to happen

took the boot cover up and the tool tray out 2 weeks ago and there it was a 2" split along the seam. It wasnt twisted or ripped like some of the others on here (guess it would only have been a matter of time) looks like a couple of spot welds had failed.:mad5:

considered just getting it seam welded myself but thought as i work away and wasnt going to use the car i`d run it into the local main stealers. I was prepared for a fight:boxing_smiley: and pm`d a few who have had simillar issues on here.... some were more helpfull than others

got a phone call 1st week saying the area manager was coming to look at it then a call today saying it would be done FOC as a good will gesture by BMW. I asked if they were going to seam weld it but no they are replacing the whole floor. ill post more details when i here more:thumbsup:

only thing is whats stopping it happening again
but as far as im concerned if they fix it once theyll have to fix it again(in another 9 yrs

Good news mate well done,i was wondering how u got on,if BMW fix one car they have to fix em all really,scared to look at mine since i got it back,has anybody had there boot floor replaced and it gone again?
Scary stuff!! O check the sealer is plentyfull around all the fixing points as mine had a leak :lol:

[ragerover]

I've not got it back yet but I'll check the sealer thanks for the tip:thumbsup:

[ragerover]

Well I went to visit my car in the BMW hospital today....... F@kin hell spoke to the body shop manager and had a look at my car the back chassis arm on the nearside had tore also the whole rear end is off the newboot floor and leg is waiting to be put in I've took some photos on my phone which I'll post later. The bodyshop manager says I'll get a certificate when it's done if I was paying he says I'd get no change from 5.5k eeeeek. Hopefully get it back in 2 weeks

[DavidC]

Just out of interest. How many of these repairs have BMW covered on cars with H&R ARBs fitted?

[ragerover]

Mine plus solid top mounts and kv3:thumbsup:

[ragerover]

Picked the car up today , every thing as expected the rear silencer not square on one side so it's going back in on Monday supposed to pick up the bodywork gaurantee then too if I get it I'll scan it and post it up

[shantybeater]

please do get these scans up ragerover, i'm planning to take on my local dealer over the next few weeks just gathering info etc..

[V12s]

Does anyone know of anyone in the South East who can carry out the strenghtening work to avoid this happening?

[Trundler]

Mine ZMC is in at Munich Legends having some gearbox work carried out.
Just had the call to say that they've noticed the boot welds failing and cracking.
Looks like i'm in need of a sympathetic stealer (:rofl:) in the Bucks/Berks area - any suggestions ..... ?

[mikehamway]

In January 2009 Randy Forbes fixed my subframe area. He did beautiful work. I track it at DEs; it is stiff and handles beautifully. He also sells a precut kit someone else can install. Highly recommended.

[c_w]

I've just noticed mine has failed, thankfully not in an advanced state. Ever since my mishap at Donington (I selected 2nd instead of 4th down Craners and the rear wheels locked and I slid off a bit) I've noticed a creaking noise at the back. It sounds like a loose piece of plastic trim inside the boot when you set off, and sometimes change to 2nd gear, but I had the windows down and it's actually louder outside the car. I've not driven it much and don't really drive it hard on the road so can only assume the major force of the wheels locking at 80ish has broken some of the welds on the boot floor directly above where the diff bush hanger is. I poked the boot floor with my finger and it made the same noise.

I'm going to drill out and re-well it but also strengthen it by adding more welds and perhaps some plating too.

[exdos]

I've just noticed mine has failed, thankfully not in an advanced state. Ever since my mishap at Donington (I selected 2nd instead of 4th down Craners and the rear wheels locked and I slid off a bit) I've noticed a creaking noise at the back. It sounds like a loose piece of plastic trim inside the boot when you set off, and sometimes change to 2nd gear, but I had the windows down and it's actually louder outside the car. I've not driven it much and don't really drive it hard on the road so can only assume the major force of the wheels locking at 80ish has broken some of the welds on the boot floor directly above where the diff bush hanger is. I poked the boot floor with my finger and it made the same noise.

I'm going to drill out and re-well it but also strengthen it by adding more welds and perhaps some plating too.

Chris,

I wouldn't say a single "incident" has caused this on your car, although it's always the straw that breaks the camel's back. It will be the cumulative effect of the entire "history" of your car causing metal fatigue. Why don't you put it into a dealership and see if you can get it repaired under goodwill? Remember, our cars are ///M cars where "M" stands for "motorsport". You can always fix it yourself if BMW refuse to act. What year of production is your MC?

[c_w]

Chris,

I wouldn't say a single "incident" has caused this on your car, although it's always the straw that breaks the camel's back. It will be the cumulative effect of the entire "history" of your car causing metal fatigue. Why don't you put it into a dealership and see if you can get it repaired under goodwill? Remember, our cars are ///M cars where "M" stands for "motorsport". You can always fix it yourself if BMW refuse to act. What year of production is your MC?

Mine's a 1999; It's only got a few popped welds so I'm going to do it myself as I never really like leaving my car with a dealer (in fact I never have :D) and can't be bothered contesting anything only to lose the car for potentially weeks to have someone else work on it. As well as fix the brocken welds, I'm going to get a new diff hanger bracket (even though the one on the car is fine and so are the welds) to double it up and plate the area to strengthen it. There is a repair piece available as an alternative to a new hanger bracket;

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/files/new_diff_arm_bracket.jpg

I may get this as it looks like you remove the original hanger and weld that whole piece over the current subframe which will drastically improve strength as well as the spread of load. Howver, on realoem a new hanger is $22 but the part above is $344 which seems a bit daft as it's just a box section extra. Whilst my car doesn't need this currently, if I'm going to repair the car I may aswell strengthen it properly.

The damage on mine is actually very difficult to spot, it's only this noise since donington that has made me check the car a few times (was the 3rd time I had the car on the ramps that I finally found it was these welds). It could be general fatigue but I think it was the high force of the wheels locking that popped them, I didn't notice the noise throughout the day as I had a helmet on and the R888s are noisier too. I've used the car maybe 5 times since that trackday and it's only made this noise since then.

[dave p]

I've just noticed mine has failed, thankfully not in an advanced state. Ever since my mishap at Donington (I selected 2nd instead of 4th down Craners and the rear wheels locked and I slid off a bit) I've noticed a creaking noise at the back. It sounds like a loose piece of plastic trim inside the boot when you set off, and sometimes change to 2nd gear, but I had the windows down and it's actually louder outside the car. I've not driven it much and don't really drive it hard on the road so can only assume the major force of the wheels locking at 80ish has broken some of the welds on the boot floor directly above where the diff bush hanger is. I poked the boot floor with my finger and it made the same noise.

I'm going to drill out and re-well it but also strengthen it by adding more welds and perhaps some plating too.
sorry to hear this chris, at least if can fix it yourself you can do some strengthening at the same time, didnt them improve the boot floor on the S54?, if so can you have a look at one and see what has changed?.

[exdos]

I may get this as it looks like you remove the original hanger and weld that whole piece over the current subframe which will drastically improve strength as well as the spread of load. Howver, on realoem a new hanger is $22 but the part above is $344 which seems a bit daft as it's just a box section extra. Whilst my car doesn't need this currently, if I'm going to repair the car I may aswell strengthen it properly.

You could save yourself $344 by making your own strengthening bracket and diff hanger out of the appropriate grade of steel, or a local sheet metal fabricator would be able to produce something for you cheaply.

[ragerover]

chris

before you start it yourself have a good look on a ramp i thought mine was 1 tack and a 50mm split in the seam, when they pulled the back cradle off the whole rear leg had gone

when i spoke to bmw the age does not matter

good lick any how mate

[c_w]

chris

before you start it yourself have a good look on a ramp i thought mine was 1 tack and a 50mm split in the seam, when they pulled the back cradle off the whole rear leg had gone

when i spoke to bmw the age does not matter

good lick any how mate

Thanks! I'll have a closer look at the time - all I can see at this point is two or three popped welds, it took the 3rd look to find them (been having a loud cracking noise when I set off), thought it was the diff or a driveshaft. BMW and some others that have repaired them fully have complete stripped the rear end, I think just removing the diff, exhausts and maybe anti roll bar will be enough and then I'm going to drill out and reweld the failed welds, then drill inbetween the spotwells to add futher welds (they're really far apart for such a structural area).


You could save yourself $344 by making your own strengthening bracket and diff hanger out of the appropriate grade of steel, or a local sheet metal fabricator would be able to produce something for you cheaply.

Yea I could do, just that that part is pressed perfectly and will fit over the crossmembet to double it up. I've written a letter to BMW - thought last night I may aswell! basically saying that I know BMW have fixed similar aged vehicles this year at great expense to them, all I want is the repair part which I think is a very fair ask!!!

[MGR]

Sorry to hear about these latest victims.

I do wonder if this is eventually going to affect every car its just a matter of time and age.

[pdwarren]

I do wonder if this is eventually going to affect every car its just a matter of time and age.

There was a thread over on zroadster where someone had done the calculations and concluded that the forces under acceleration in 1st were over the fatigue limit for the components, so in that case, yes, it would just be a matter of time. I'm not sure if that related to the spot welds of the diff hanger, which also falls apart.

Paul

[Frixen Z3M]

Hi

I have uploaded some pictures of my trunk reinforcements....

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=3588

hope it could help someone:driving:

[cragg711220]

Why? When BMW will replace the whole floor (with the chunkier diff clevis) for you? Resealed, repained etc...

[c_w]

Why? When BMW will replace the whole floor (with the chunkier diff clevis) for you? Resealed, repained etc...

Will they? they don't want to touch mine!

[cragg711220]

Keep pushing them, and try other dealers.

[MGR]

Why? When BMW will replace the whole floor (with the chunkier diff clevis) for you? Resealed, repained etc...

I expect as with most things there will come a time when they won't do this. Might be better to prevent it in the long run rather than risk having pay out for the repair.

[ragerover]

Will they? they don't want to touch mine!

if its on the road run it to cooper bmw sunderland they did mine so will have seen it before
id also imagine that the bmw rep will be the same so should be easier to deal with

[c_w]

if its on the road run it to cooper bmw sunderland they did mine so will have seen it before
id also imagine that the bmw rep will be the same so should be easier to deal with

It's all done now! :)

I probably could have pushed a bit harder but didn't want the hassle of driving all over to find sympathetics dealers, probably having the usual pay for the inspection first bit, it may or may not go through, the cars sat for weeks whilst it's arranged then further time whilst its fixed etc.

The first point of contact was an actual customer services name given to me from someone on zroadster who had his car fixed by BMW earlier this year. Obviously the reason I rang this person was because you would think he would be familiar with this problem, that BMW are still fixing them due to an original design defect etc, but he was just a bullshitter I was feeding him what we all know and he was not giving anything away. So BMWs initial stance is which is obvious is it's going to cost then £3/4k to do their repairs (which could be considered a bit OTT when the whole rear end of the car is removed despite the porlbem being a small location). At the same time I sent a letter to BMW head office and received a letter saying due to the age the car is no longer covered.

The crossmemeber part directly where the diff hanger is welded is not actually attached the to bootfloor at all and this is the cause of the problem IMO. This causes flex which then weakens and eventually breaks the welds on the bootfloor. Also the metal omn the crossmember is actually decent thickness but it's attached to a wafer-thin boot floor so that's why it tears so easily. The chassis railes running front to back on each side of the boot are where most of the strength comes from but the diff is pulling down on the centre of the cross member.

I've drilled out all the broken welds, and also doubled the pitch of the welds. The diff hanger is now welded directly up to the boot floor. I've also doubled up the diff hanger with a new brakcet (this is just £12 from BMW). Then a plate has been welded inside on the boot floor to cover/strengthen the whole area and welded on to the left hand chassis rail. Now I've put some sound matting back on it looks pretty much like it did originally.

[dave p]

chris you could go into business as a boot floor repairer :cornut:

[c_w]

Haha nah it's a bit of a faffy job, glad it's done now!! Sheared a few driveshaft bolts which put a downer on it at the start but my dad managed to get them off; think they've been undone and tightened too many times as the diff has been changed about 4 times now. Thankfully they're only 80p each from BMW so replaced all 12 when putting it back together. And the 4 diff bolts never get easier to put in, soooo fiddly!!! :cuss: :D

[chippy]

And the 4 diff bolts never get easier to put in, soooo fiddly!!! :cuss: :D

Think i've sworn more obsenities at those bolts than any other part of the car!!!!!!!!!:D

[issproking]

Hi Guys

Was reading through this post the other day and thought I would go and give my car a thorough check. First here are some pics from inside the boot

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//566/3498Boo1.JPG

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//566/3498Boot2.JPG

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/photopost/data//566/3498Boot3.JPG

It looks ok to me but Ive got an untrained eye. Would anyone be kind enough to have a look and see what you think?

Ill try and get some pictures from underneath and post those as well

Many thanks

[c_w]

It that mostly dirt or is some of it rust? I've seen quite a few Z3s with rust inside the boots which. Even with the few factured welds on mine the rust was only concentrated around those failed welds.

It looks "ok" but you can't really tell without removing the sound deadening (the raised bits painted blue). If you drew a line from the head of the ratchet left and vertically down from the black rubber grommet with the wireing coming out, it's that area that has 3 spot welds notorious for failing first.

[z3mcouperacer]

You will need to take the dynomat type stuff to see the spot welds.

I had a split in mine which was very very slight, but the spot welds under the matting were a lot more serious.

It's also worth noting that BMW will not cover cars over 10 years old on a goodwill basis, they might of course take older cars on a case by case basis. But as it stands its 10 years goodwill for boot floors and only 6 years for mechanical parts (rear trailing arms/rear subframe for example).

BMW were more than happy to deal with it (dealer wise) and BMW CS were also very good. But i think i may have been fortunate in the sense my dealer had done a lot floor repairs (1 M Coupe, loads of e46 M3's and loads of normal e46's).

Thanks
Matt

[issproking]

Cheers Guys

Yeah pretty sure thats just dust and dirt, will double check though.

Is the sound deadening able to come up and be put back or once its up can it really not go back?

[c_w]

Cheers Guys

Yeah pretty sure thats just dust and dirt, will double check though.

Is the sound deadening able to come up and be put back or once its up can it really not go back?

Unfortunately not, it's like a bitumen you need to heat it up a little then scrape it off with a chisel, it does come of easily enough though, and you could just scrape out that little section (it softens when heated so you could mark the section out with a stanley knife then peel it back with a scraper.

[shogg]

guys,

Reading this its sounds inevitable that sooner or later, if you track the car with some sticky tyres, you are going to have this issue?

Has anyone paid to have the floor strengthened pre-failure in the UK (what chris has done to his)? If so can you share who did it and how much?

Surely it makes sense to spend 500quid on prevention than 5k on a new floor?
(i scanned the 20pages but didnt find an answer...)

cheers

steve

[c_w]

guys,

Reading this its sounds inevitable that sooner or later, if you track the car with some sticky tyres, you are going to have this issue?

Has anyone paid to have the floor strengthened pre-failure in the UK (what chris has done to his)? If so can you share who did it and how much?

Surely it makes sense to spend 500quid on prevention than 5k on a new floor?
(i scanned the 20pages but didnt find an answer...)

cheers

steve

It should never cost £5k to replace the "boot floor" but that might be a cost from BMW at full dealer parts/labour prices to do the "full repair" which is quite OTT effectively unstitching and refitting a whole new rear section.

There isn't that much to the rear floor; two chassis rails come rearwards on either side, to this there is the "subframe" that goes acrossways near the front of the boot (to which the rear diff mount is attached), it's this that pulls down from the chassis rails because the welds aren't strong enough and it takes the boot "floor" with it which isn't so structural.

But I think you could be right in saying it is highly likely to happen at some stage in the car's life even if it's not been tracked (lots of recorded failings on z3 roadsters that haven't been tracked). The main problem is the design allows for slight flex in this area which leads to fatigue in the (few) welds and eventual failure.

Preventative measure should be quite easy and not require much stripping down other than the boot floor inside and maybe the exhaust backboxes. Once the sound matting is scraped off you can see the weld points; I would double the pitch by drilling and welding new welds
inbetween the existing spotwelds and also stitch the left hand side chassis rail to the boot floor.

[z3mcouperacer]

As above the BMW repair is OTT, but when its free no one will complain.

I would imagine to have the whole rear end removed, re-enforce the diff carrier, re-spot and seem weld the boot floor before putting new bushes on and refitting the rear end could be done for about a grand.

[indy]

here is a link to the thread with details of the repair i had done on my car (http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10453)

Picked the car up today , every thing as expected the rear silencer not square on one side so it's going back in on Monday supposed to pick up the bodywork gaurantee then too if I get it I'll scan it and post it up

please do get these scans up ragerover, i'm planning to take on my local dealer over the next few weeks just gathering info etc..

and a bit late, but better than never.

here is the scan of ragerovers invoice:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/indycos/RSOC%20-%20Signatures/1%20cars/BootFloorrepairedbyBMW-ragerover.jpg

[Tuesday]

If the floor has not gone already, surely having a good line of mig / tig weld put in over the point of failure will prevent the crack from occurring for a long time, if not forever and this would only cost like £100?

Need to check my one properly tomorrow very nervous about looking, kind of dont want to know in a way. Will put some pics up of what I find soon.

[Tuesday]

Ok just checked it and thank fudge it all seems absolutely fine!!
Think I checked it correctly and in the right area. let me know if what Iv done is wrong.

Before

http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad236/robin131_photo/8653a9fc.jpg

Taking of the black stuff

http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad236/robin131_photo/85bb2acc.jpg

With all the crap gone it seems fine? just a bit dirty but no visible cracks.

http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad236/robin131_photo/7ac6922e.jpg

http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad236/robin131_photo/6998fccf.jpg

Seem ok to you??

[ragerover]

looks good to me

seam welding the area would seem the ideal solution but with all these things you some times move the fault further up the chain

im sure some one will be along shortly to correct me lol:thumbsup:

[c_w]

You need to scrape off further up the left chassis rail left of the rubber grommet with the loom coming through.

Also the classic 3 welds that seem to go most are those just inbetween the left boot floor trim brackets. You can just about see the outlines of the spot welds in the sound matting. The section where the loom comes through and the two metal brackets are.

[Tuesday]

Ok thanks Ill check it out tomorrow

[indy]

has anyone experienced ANY kind of boot floor, subframe etc etc ... failure on an S54?

coupe or roadster

:Yawn:

[z3mcouperacer]

yeah, mine was done a year ago by BMW

[indy]

yeah, mine was done a year ago by BMW

got any pics of how it was before? during work done? after? :thumbsup:

[z3mcouperacer]

got any pics of how it was before? during work done? after? :thumbsup:

Nothing really no, mine wasnt that bad, very slight split in the boot.
BMW Cooper just pushed everything through with BMW UK, strange how some people struggle to get certain dealers to sort it out

[Spooks]

What made you notice yours or did you go looking for it?

[z3mcouperacer]

What made you notice yours or did you go looking for it?

I just did a routine check and noticed a split about 10cm long, it hadn't dropped down as other peoples had.
I was almost ready for BMW to tell me to go away until it got worse as it was very very early days of the damage.

Cooper had two e46 M3's in for the same repair at the time i went in with mine, they said they'd seen loads of e46's M's and non M's

[Spooks]

Is the routine check as in scraping up the seal in the boot? I dont fancy butchering my boot just even for peace of mind!!!

[indy]

Is the routine check as in scraping up the seal in the boot? I dont fancy butchering my boot just even for peace of mind!!!

i could see mine through the sound deadening stuff (the stuff had cracked too :lol:) so didnt need to scrape it all off to know that a problem was present! :cheers2:

mine also hadnt sunk like some others :thumbsup:

[ragerover]

on mine i removed the boot floor lining to fit a bracket and noticed a small tear about 10 cm but when bmw investigated it was much worse they replaced the full left hand rear chassis arm as this had begun to tear too
ill post a picture off my phone in a moment

[z3mcouperacer]

Is the routine check as in scraping up the seal in the boot? I dont fancy butchering my boot just even for peace of mind!!!

Mine was like indy's, it had cracked through the sound deadening, i then scraped the deadening off to see how bad it was.

[ragerover]

as im crap at posting photo`s ive forwarded them to indy to post for me

[Spooks]

I have kind of gate crashed this thread late and 22 pages takes some reading(!) hence my question of an easy check.

I havent noticed anything to make me think it might have but wouldnt want to scrape the boot floor up either unless I had a suspicion...

Cheers

[c_w]

All I had was a a squeak/cracking noise occassionaly when setting off. I'd checked the diff bolts and anything else a few times. Also did check the boot floor but could see no signs of failure. It was only when I started stripping out the interior to try and narrow it down that could only think it was the boot floor making the noise. When I scraped the sound deadening off about 3 or 4 spot welds had failed above/left of the rear diff mount but it was very difficult to see and could only be seen INSIDE the boot with the deadening scraped off.

Mine was only a light failure, it was only the noise that attracted my attention. I think for those that fail worse the drivers just didn't noticed it as I can see when it fails worse like the cross-member starts to fall away from the chassis rail it will make a right racket.

If you don't have any noises on clutch/drive take-up in 1st I would guess it's fine.

[z3mcouperacer]

Ah yes, i had a lot of that too.
My rear diff carrier had also cracked......
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs161.snc3/18845_248106093364_591878364_3370829_3585442_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs161.snc3/18845_248106093364_591878364_3370829_3585442_n.jpg

It was only thing they wouldn't replace (6 year warranty for corrosion), so i had it sand blasted, welded, strengthened then recoated with new poly bushes before they put it all back together.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs161.snc3/18845_256580043364_591878364_3406002_5774945_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs161.snc3/18845_256580048364_591878364_3406003_3316804_n.jpg

[c_w]

A new failure point to add to the list!!

[indy]

REMINDER!!!

its probably worth reminding any owners whos cars arent yet 10yrs old to get this checked out ASAP. if you have a problem, you may still get yours done under the goodwill scheme, but once it gets past that 10yr barrier, they will stick to being the cunts that they really are, and youll wish you had checked it earlier!!! :rofl:

spooks, deffo check it out buddy :thumbsup:

will post up rage's pics in a sec :cheers2:

[indy]

as im crap at posting photo`s ive forwarded them to indy to post for me

here you go :yesnod:

http://i53.tinypic.com/2exbhv5.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/2vccjr5.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/vn06yt.jpg

[W521]

Got round to checking the diff mounting - looked perfect, and saw three spot welds close by which appeared intact (not cracked), thankfully. I know there are a few other spots to check, but didn't manage to see them.

Just wondering if having additional spot welds done would assist in preventing failure in future?

[c_w]

Got round to checking the diff mounting - looked perfect, and saw three spot welds close by which appeared intact (not cracked), thankfully. I know there are a few other spots to check, but didn't manage to see them.

Just wondering if having additional spot welds done would assist in preventing failure in future?

Yes they most definintely would, that's the reason the existing spot welds fail in the first place; too much flex in this area and after a while fatigue takes over and they give up. There are no spot welds directly above the diff mount where the cross member meets the boot floor.

I think if you doubled the pitch it would go a long way to preventing it happening.

[ragerover]

I think if you doubled the pitch it would go a long way to preventing it happening.

dont you mean half the pitch

why not seam weld it while your at it if its ok now seam welding would be a doddle

[W521]

Thanks for the advice C_W & Ragerover:cheers2:. A few questions...

Ragerover - where would you seam weld? Inside of the boot floor?

Also how much dis-assembling would be required to facilitate the spot welding?

Showing my ignorance here C_W, if I haven't managed to already, but what do you mean by pitch?

[Jonttt]

I think pitch = frequency in this instance (why he couldn't just say more of them I don't know :lol:)

I guess the roadies must be much easier to check as its easy to see if the 3 top left hand spot welds are broken by just lifting the carpet.

Its worth noting that the S54 cars had a stronger (ie thicker) diff bracket fitted (used as a retrofit kit by BMW on S50's) and more spot welds.

I had my S50 done by BMW FOC early 2009 and did loads of research into this (I'm sure I've already posted a link to my thread on Zroadster on here).

I know ofr a fact that BMW stopped doing FOC repairs late in 2009 (ie when they really started feeling the pinch) and the only people I'm aware of that have had theirs done by BMW FOC this year are shall we say "very" good customers of BMW.

There are a few roady guys who have had 3rd party repairs (involves strengthening the cross member and weld points) for a few hundred quid recently.

I'll post up links if people are interested

Edit: try here if you have a spare hour or two (but there are pics of the recent repairs on the initial thread linked to;-)

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24491&start=0

[z3mcouperacer]

Interesting as mine is an S54 with the same failures as on S50's.
I can't comment on them not doing FOC repairs after late 09 as mine was done in late December 09/Jan 10.

The 10 year rule they seem to have mentioned will certainly come into force on all cars in the next 8/9 month anyway.

[indy]

Interesting as mine is an S54 with the same failures as on S50's.
I can't comment on them not doing FOC repairs after late 09 as mine was done in late December 09/Jan 10.

The 10 year rule they seem to have mentioned will certainly come into force on all cars in the next 8/9 month anyway.

what year/build date is your car? im thinking if it was on the cross-over point from S50/S54 years, then maybe it didnt get the strengthened stuff? :cheers2:

[z3mcouperacer]

Build date is November 2001 and Reg is 51.

Seems strange they would change the boot floor/diff carrier for the last year of manufacture then make it so difficult (in the early stages) for owners to claim a repair for the faulty floor/diff.

If true it suggests that they knew the floors were crap? (not sure when the first floor failure happened)

[Jonttt]

There was a class action started in the USA - erm yes they new about the problem and changed the design / manufacture process for the S54's (there was a break in production of c 6 months from S50 to S54 and there was lots of changes for the S54 which based just on a small production run you could ask why did they bother, but thats what makes them so rare ie will BMW ever produce such a small run of an ///M car again ?)

Its funny how its associated with the Z3's and yet it affect other BMW models :o

Its worth knowing that it can happen to a mid production run S54 as well though!

For whats its worth its not just the ///M variants, I now of at least 2 1.9's that have suffered from this.

Its wierd how it seems to affect cars across the range randomly and obviously not purely power related. There is a thought that as a lot of the produciton process at the USA plant was manual including the welding that it could simply come down to pot luck and how well the guy on the day did the job ?

[c_w]

Yes I meant more welds! So yes halfing the pitch is the right term! :D

You can only really seam weld the edges of the chassis rails down the left hand side, they do fail here but usually as a result of the crossmember pulling down at the end after it's spot welds have failed.. But the cross member that runs from left to right under the boot floor is spot welded so will require holes being drilled across it and welded.

The S54 bracket is the same only a fraction thicker, but apparently there may be more spot welds too but it's hardly any different.

[W521]

Gotcha!


Reading the zroadster thread jonttt posted there's a chap called Lez who has done a tidy job on a few. Anyone know where he's located?

[Jonttt]

I think from memory it was Leeds/Sheffield way (I remember thinking he's not too far away if I ever need his services)

I can post up on Zroadster and ask for more details if you like (I met one of the guys who had it done at cars in the park last year and it was a tidy job)

[Fat Tony]

Yes please Jonttt :thumbsup:

[Jonttt]

I've PM'd the two guys who had the work done by "Les" but they have not been on the forum for a while so not sure how quickly they will get back to me ;-)

[Fat Tony]

Thanks :thumbsup:

[Jonttt]

Here you go:

***********************************
"They have a web site also.

Just tell them to mention Matt or Corky.

Emley Refinishers & Restorers

Tel: 01924 840758
Fax: 01924 840358

Unit 4A, Emley Moor Business Park
Huddersfield HD8 9QY
***********************************

Price would depend on exact work required, but your talking a few hundred quid not thousands and you know they've done a few before :thumbsup:

[Spooks]

Here you go:

***********************************
"They have a web site also.

Just tell them to mention Matt or Corky.

Emley Refinishers & Restorers

Tel: 01924 840758
Fax: 01924 840358

Unit 4A, Emley Moor Business Park
Huddersfield HD8 9QY
***********************************

Price would depend on exact work required, but your talking a few hundred quid not thousands and you know they've done a few before :thumbsup:

Its just this kind of help/info that makes this site so good! Merry Christmas!!

[W521]

Cheers Jonttt!!! Great bit of research!


At 366 miles the round trip can wait for the spring...

[W521]

http://www.emleyrefinishers.co.uk/

[Fat Tony]

Yes, thanks very much Jonttt :thumbsup:

Bonus that it's not far from me so I'll get in touch after Christmas and get the MC booked in for a good checking over and see ho we go.

[nessamot III]

Fixed mine this week for less than £500, by a local guy, who did Indy's car as well. Good work and fixed within a day (I removed the interior my self, which saves 3 hours labour cost!)

I think I can feel the difference, or is this the feeling of more confidence?

By the way I am not a newby, This is my 3rd accound on Z3M Coupe, I keep them in sequence :yesnod:

Roy

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_xZEaas2bVAA/TYN9zC_cUSI/AAAAAAAACkY/cU44AJf9O98/s800/DSC_9728.JPG

[indy]

Fixed mine this week for less than £500, by a local guy, who did Indy's car as well. Good work and fixed within a day (I removed the interior my self, which saves 3 hours labour cost!)

I think I can feel the difference, or is this the feeling of more confidence?

By the way I am not a newby, This is my 3rd accound on Z3M Coupe, I keep them in sequence :yesnod:

Roy

roy!

why do you keep making new accounts if your old ones are working fine :lol:

if you lose your password you can request a new one, and if youre having any problems contact the mods/admin :thumbsup:

did you get any pics of the repair :cheers2:

glad its sorted :yesnod:

[nessamot III]

No problems with my passwords, and send a message to Admin, and
have tried several other ways. They can delete or combine the accounts
if they want a clean system.

Yes he made a pictures, printed it off and wrote comments next to the repairs.

Would recommend him. He confirmed this time he was much quicker as he knows
exactly what to do.

Thank you for recommeding him.

Regards

Roy

[indy]

No problems with my passwords, and send a message to Admin, and
have tried several other ways. They can delete or combine the accounts
if they want a clean system.

Yes he made a pictures, printed it off and wrote comments next to the repairs.

Would recommend him. He confirmed this time he was much quicker as he knows
exactly what to do.

Thank you for recommeding him.

Regards

Roy

cool roy!

mine was the first MC he done, so im sure any others he would do hereafter, would be quicker, and probably slightly better.

if i can help with any other problems along the way, let me know :cheers2:

post up the pics if you can! or just email them to me, id be interested in a look/read if you dont mind, as the pictures of my car i took myself! so didnt get a full written report on what was done.

i trust johns work anyway, as i know what he does (did) for a living!!! :thumbsup:

[johnnyb]

I've just had my boot floor repaired although I seem to have got off lightly compared to some of the photos on here :yikes:

For the record the car has done 63k and is a Jan 99 model with full BMW history.

My car had no signs of damage, from the underside everything looked fine with no cracks in the diff mount or subframe. The rear end was silent on the move without any creaks or other noises. It was always my intention to strip out the boot and have the floor strengthened by a friend as a preventive measure.

So, I stripped out the boot carpet, tool kit and insulation and saw the first tell tale sign, a very slight crack in the dynamat type insulation in the usual left hand side. After removing all of this with the help of my wifes hair dryer and white spirit to remove the residue I was left with this.

Failed spot welds can be seen below the cable with another below the lashing point where the floor is just starting to seperate.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/johnnygb/01042011433.jpg

Close up of the spot welds near the cable. The ruler is to help my friend as I emailed the photos to him.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/johnnygb/01042011431.jpg

And the floor starting to seperate

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/johnnygb/01042011432.jpg

So off to my friends garage it went. Work in progress, broken spot welds were replaced and added where needed.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/johnnygb/IMG_0246.jpg

The underside also had extra welds added for durability

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/johnnygb/IMG_0245.jpg

And painted.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/johnnygb/IMG_0247.jpg

Hopefully this will last longer than the original BMW effort :thumbsup:

[Fat Tony]

http://www.emleyrefinishers.co.uk/

Just had some paintwork done by these guys and have been very impressed with the quality and their 'do things right' attitude :thumbsup:

Really must get around to removing the soundproofing from the boot in mine to have a really good inspection of the area

[Jame5]

Does anyone have recommendations for a boot floor repair in South Wales or near south wales? I've just returned home from working away with the intention of getting the car up for sale. I put the car in the body shop to have the front end sorted (stone chips etc). Unfortunately the drive to the body shop was the straw that broke the camels back. The boot floor has just let go, so I need to get it repaired before I get it up for sale. Any suggestions welcome. The car is an S50 1999 so out of warranty.

As for an S50 replacement, I think I'm going for a 335i Touring. I'll be sorry to see the S50 go. :cryin: