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  • #16
    Originally posted by wadh0070 View Post

    Ok - I buy that TC can be useful, but some turn it off straight away, and you wouldn't want it on the track.

    Jez
    TC doesn't need to be turned off. You can drive quickly and smoothly and it won't come on. It can start to intrude if the car is not driven smoothly enough but I almost never have the TC light come on in usual driving and it is there should anything unexpected happen.

    You won't want it on track but you can turn it off in an instant.

    The S54 is just a much better engine. Its smoother, has better response and has more torque lower down. Granted a blast through the red line in each gear won't tell the S54 from the S50 but its much more than about the raw power figures.

    Having said all that the S50 is one of the best engines of its age so you can't really go wrong with either but there must be some reason why the S54 got engine of the year for its entire production lifespan.

    I think in the end for some people its worth the extra cash for some it isn't. For me it was.

    I would be interested in Lee's response. See if its along a similar line to mine.....
    Ex 2001 S54
    New cars:
    Lotus Carlton
    350Z

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    • #17
      Originally posted by chippy View Post
      In standard form, the S54 is a much better engine, fact!
      Beat me to it


      and here is a link the the boot floor issue

      http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2332
      Last edited by MGR; 03-12-2008, 09:30 PM.
      Ex 2001 S54
      New cars:
      Lotus Carlton
      350Z

      Comment


      • #18
        Bugger traction, who needs that?

        it is just a more advanced, better engine.

        Its an evolution of the S50 so was really always going to be better, BMW M division rarely get these things wrong.

        I test drove one when I had my S50 and its definitely better, more torque being the main thing. It has more power and noticeably more power, mainly because the the S50 only produced 280-300bhp and the S54 did produce 340 in the E46 M3 and 320ish in the S54 MC.

        The fly by wire throttle does also add to the feel that the car is more responsive and has more power.

        Im not saying that the S50 is not good because there is nothing wrong with it and I would have one again but given the choice I would have the later S54.
        Ex 'V3RY M - MCoupe track monster'
        New toys

        Porsche widebody project

        Cayenne Diesel

        Comment


        • #19
          Thanks all. I did think it was going to come down to the engine. I agree that it's a better engine, and although I haven't driven it in the Z3MC, I have driven the Z4MC. It was more refined, but I couldn't tell immediately if that was the engine or the car. I figured probably a bit of both.

          At today's prices, I can definitely see the attraction of paying the bit extra for an S54. When I was looking nearly every S54 owner wanted £20k+, almost irrespective of condition. Although none had mega-miles.

          Rightly or wrongly I saved the money ... and the balance has gone on the Caterham which is in gestation (although I did have to top it up!).

          Jez
          1998 Cosmos Black - Not quite standard ...

          Comment


          • #20
            Perhaps the S54 needs the TC more than the S50 because apart from the slight torque and bhp advantage, the mapping of the S54 throttle means it's a lot more sensitive instead of the linear S50.

            In the S50 for decent acceleration and full power you need at least half travel sometimes/WOT which is kind of what you expect but in a lot of modern cars with drive-by-wire they're mapped for maximum response on the first half of travel as it feels like you're having to work the engine less and gives the impression of more power. Having said that I've never driven one but that is what I suspect is part of the difference (there is a small power advantage though) and it does make sense if you can to get an S54 (I would have but 3.5yrs ago they were non below 22k).
            Last edited by c_w; 04-12-2008, 10:39 AM.

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            • #21
              I used to have an S50 MR and now have an S54 MC, I guess its been too long between cars because I don't really remember much difference, apart from the MC does feel the quicker car but certainly not in another league. The biggest plus is that the service intervals are longer on the S54 and presumably (or hopefully) it means it's even more reliable than the strong S50.

              The TC is crude when compared to more modern cars (my E91 320D is so much better) but since I've modded it I have come to appreciate it as a safety net in the wet...there was no way I was turning it off at Oulton Park on a drizzly Wednesday - it didn't kick in very often, but when it did I appreciated it (like exiting Druids).

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              • #22
                Originally posted by c_w View Post
                Perhaps the S54 needs the TC more than the S50 because apart from the slight torque and bhp advantage, the mapping of the S54 throttle means it's a lot more sensitive instead of the linear S50.

                In the S50 for decent acceleration and full power you need at least half travel sometimes/WOT which is kind of what you expect but in a lot of modern cars with drive-by-wire they're mapped for maximum response on the first half of travel as it feels like you're having to work the engine less and gives the impression of more power. Having said that I've never driven one but that is what I suspect is part of the difference (there is a small power advantage though) and it does make sense if you can to get an S54 (I would have but 3.5yrs ago they were non below 22k).
                I've driven a couple of S50 MCs and they have the same "long" throttle response as the three S54 MCs I've driven. I think this is what makes the MC such a civilised car to drive in traffic. You have to depress the S54 accelerator to about half-way to make the engine really start to come alive.

                I think you are right that the Traction Control (DSC) is installed on the S54 MC because the drive-by-wire mapping uses a curvilinear throttle response to a linear travel of the accelerator pedal, therefore the input of your right foot is not proportionate to the engine response. I agree with most of the other S54 owners that the DSC is not intrusive. If you drive the car right it just doesn't come on. I don't hold with all the bravado stuff about "I don't need it" - I'd rather keep my car on the road with a little help from the DSC than take an expensive trip into the scenery.
                /// Exdos ///
                "Men who try the impossible and fail spectacularly are infinitely superior to those who reach for nothing and succeed" --Napoleon Bonapart

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by exdos View Post
                  I've driven a couple of S50 MCs and they have the same "long" throttle response as the three S54 MCs I've driven. I think this is what makes the MC such a civilised car to drive in traffic. You have to depress the S54 accelerator to about half-way to make the engine really start to come alive.

                  I think you are right that the Traction Control (DSC) is installed on the S54 MC because the drive-by-wire mapping uses a curvilinear throttle response to a linear travel of the accelerator pedal, therefore the input of your right foot is not proportionate to the engine response. I agree with most of the other S54 owners that the DSC is not intrusive. If you drive the car right it just doesn't come on. I don't hold with all the bravado stuff about "I don't need it" - I'd rather keep my car on the road with a little help from the DSC than take an expensive trip into the scenery.
                  Not bravado about TC just do not like it. I have a car with nearly 200 horses more than the MC and no traction, all fine as long as you are measured with your inputs and take notice of road conditions and surfaces.

                  It is intrusive if you are on the limit, even with the CSL is but you can turn it all the way off. Maybe you do not push the car enough that it needs to intervene.

                  Certainly track days TC can be a pain.
                  Ex 'V3RY M - MCoupe track monster'
                  New toys

                  Porsche widebody project

                  Cayenne Diesel

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Lee View Post
                    I have a car with nearly 200 horses more than the MC and no traction, all fine as long as you are measured with your inputs and take notice of road conditions and surfaces.
                    True, but have you not caught yourself out yet? Maybe you haven't yet pushed the car enough on the twisties to find out?

                    Originally posted by Lee View Post
                    Maybe you do not push the car enough that it needs to intervene.
                    ROFL

                    Originally posted by Lee View Post
                    Certainly track days TC can be a pain.
                    When I first got my MC the DSC would come on quite a lot because I wasn't driving it with enough finesse. I always blamed myself for this rather than blaming the DSC, and I worked out that the DSC only came on when I had seriously unbalanced the car, or had been too crude with the accelerator. I used the DSC as a sort of "instructor" that would tell me when I had done something wrong, consequently, I learned a lot and modified my driving style accordingly to suit the car. I no longer try to beat the car in to submission, instead I work with the car, and I find that me and my MC work better together that way. It certainly wasn't a pain around the Ring.
                    Last edited by exdos; 04-12-2008, 05:07 PM.
                    /// Exdos ///
                    "Men who try the impossible and fail spectacularly are infinitely superior to those who reach for nothing and succeed" --Napoleon Bonapart

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                    • #25
                      DSC is pony! end of

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by BEN View Post
                        DSC is pony! end of
                        Another thoughtful analysis
                        /// Exdos ///
                        "Men who try the impossible and fail spectacularly are infinitely superior to those who reach for nothing and succeed" --Napoleon Bonapart

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by exdos View Post
                          Another thoughtful analysis
                          Strongstrut CL front brace-Yellowstuff pads/Castrol SRF race brake fluid-Rogue top mounts/Rear support bushes-H&R ARBs-Whiteline droplinks-Bilstein Sport shockers-H&R Springs-Black Halo Angel Eye headlight units-Sachs lightweight flywheel/matching clutch-Supersprint exhaust/race catalysers-BBS RSGTs with Falkens-K&N High Flow Air Filter-Recaro Pole Position seats - Exdos mod - ACS flippers

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by exdos View Post
                            Another thoughtful analysis
                            It summed it up nicely i thought!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by c_w View Post
                              ...but in a lot of modern cars with drive-by-wire they're mapped for maximum response on the first half of travel as it feels like you're having to work the engine less and gives the impression of more power.
                              Totally agree. I hear that Mini's are quite 'bad' for this (I'm not a fan of non-linear throttle progression). The guy that bought my 130i came from a JCW Mini Cooper S, and reckoned my 130i was very progressive for a FBW throttle, however you could still tell that 50% throttle gave ~80% engine power.

                              Recently driving an Aston DBS, I was shocked at how when engaging sport mode, 20% throttle gave ~80% power. On light throttle it felt immensely powerful, however it - to me - is such a facade. I love my good old throttle cable actuation!
                              Current: 2005 330i Sport
                              Sold but never forgotten: 2000 Estoril S50

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by exdos View Post

                                When I first got my MC the DSC would come on quite a lot because I wasn't driving it with enough finesse. I always blamed myself for this rather than blaming the DSC, and I worked out that the DSC only came on when I had seriously unbalanced the car, or had been too crude with the accelerator. I used the DSC as a sort of "instructor" that would tell me when I had done something wrong, consequently, I learned a lot and modified my driving style accordingly to suit the car. I no longer try to beat the car in to submission, instead I work with the car, and I find that me and my MC work better together that way. It certainly wasn't a pain around the Ring.
                                Yes same here, first few months it came on all the time but I adapted my driving style to suit.
                                Ex 2001 S54
                                New cars:
                                Lotus Carlton
                                350Z

                                Comment

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