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  • General handling waffle.

    So, I'm just about to get the ARB's fitted, and have been looking back at comments on here, and also reviews at the time, both written and courtesy of our friends Clarkson and Needell.

    I don't really see any feedback from them on the handling needing work, or the body rolling too much, in fact from those two particularly, they are generally very positive indeed.

    So my general chatting point is, have the expectations of handling moved on in 10 years, or are the majority of MC owners, looking for something that looks like an MC but drives like something else(take your pick here) and then do whatever they can to achieve that.

    The MC was never going to come stock with adjustable suspension, but it could easily have come with thinker ARB's, perhaps even at the time the engine was changed over and various other things refreshed.
    They add virtually no cost, so why wouldn't they have done this - it frequently happens with refreshes of various hot hatches.

    I've just gone out for a burn and tbh, I'm tempted to cancel the fitting as although it's a bit bouncy, that does have the effect of keeping me under a certain speed which is no bad thing and is I'd say, capable enough for my skill level.

    I say all this as a non-tracker, who loves speed, but is never going to go through the expense and work of transforming the car, even though it's clear that's possible.

    Hopefully this isn't the dullest thread of the month, but I wanna talk about it so here it is.
    Maybe I'll post some boobs up later to compensate ;-)
    S54 Seca Blue - ACS Short shift and Exhaust. Luverly.

  • #2
    I honestly think both Needell and Clarkson were fond of the car and fairly light on reviewing it. Autocar for example did criticise its handling and there are some shots of it in the review at really high angles of roll and pitch that look unreal. At the time many sporting version of cars, including the E36 M3 are no where near as firm as modern versions. A regular 3-series saloon M Sport for example will ride much more firmly than the M Coupe.

    The car does drive well as standard but it is far too soft for its sporting pretensions and anything remotely modern feels far sharper and less rolly/squatty even if it's not a particualrly sporty version.

    I'd fit the roll bars, I'd say you WILL like them, it's like an invisible hand keeping the car level :)
    Last edited by c_w; 13-06-2013, 02:27 PM.

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    • #3
      My experience for what its worth........

      I am not a big fan of modified cars and have preferred to buy cars that I like stock and keep them stock (apart from wider mini-lite wheels on my mini van and turbo wheels on my Fiat uno when I was a teenager).....

      I bought my MC totally stock (apart from an e-tech strut brace) and if honest would not have looked at a modified one.

      Over four years however I have fitted in this order 10mm spacers all around, H&R Arbs, H&R Springs, Bilstein B8s and a full Larini exhaust inc sports cats and have it exactly where I want (I would consider switching to KW V3s if I had time on my hands to play with them).

      The bottom line is the car stock was good, but the car now is much more enjoyable to drive and own. The lack of body roll makes it feel like a more modern/ capable sports car, it sounds special and in my option looks much better for the 30mm drop.

      My impression of the upgrades in isolation were as follows:

      Spacers
      + Improved the stance, reduced roll slightly
      - Made it more prone to tramlining, especially under braking and made the high ride height more obvious.

      H&R arbs on standard suspension
      + Reduced body roll a lot
      - In my opinion started compromising the relatively soft stock suspension by feeling over stiff when moving across steep cambers for example (pulling into steep driveways/ roads, even pulling out from the pavement on roads with a lot of camber).

      The H&R arbs only made sense to me when I dropped the ride height and fitted the B8s (may have been the way the were installed before) and the overall ride/ handling balance is great. It is slightly more unsettled at low speeds but so much better in every other circumstance.

      I think my answer to your question is that yes, performance cars have moved on a lot, expectations have changed and the amount of body roll the MC has as OEM would not be expected or accepted today.

      Only you can answer what you want out of yours and how/ the type of roads you drive on. My advise would be to get them fitted and if you do not like them switch back. It is not a major expense in the large scheme of things. Then depending on the mileage on your suspension (mine had done 50K) I would look there next as it really does transform the way the car drives for the better
      S50 Black, H&R Arbs/ Springs, B8s, Larini Exhaust

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      • #4
        Originally posted by maph View Post
        H&R arbs on standard suspension
        + Reduced body roll a lot
        - In my opinion started compromising the relatively soft stock suspension by feeling over stiff when moving across steep cambers for example (pulling into steep driveways/ roads, even pulling out from the pavement on roads with a lot of camber).

        The H&R arbs only made sense to me when I dropped the ride height and fitted the B8s (may have been the way the were installed before) and the overall ride/ handling balance is great. It is slightly more unsettled at low speeds but so much better in every other circumstance.
        I would agree with that summary of the H&R bars. With the softer standard springs the roll bars are working slightly harder to control the body. It is only really perceptible when one wheel is affected and not the other, so a pothole for example.

        Also, with the semi trailing rear suspension reducing it's movement (and therefore the wild camber and toe changes inherent in this design) mean that whilst a stiffer setup makes it ride more firmly the handling is proportionally far better and more progressive.

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        • #5
          I'm all for keeping cars standard. I normally buy them as I like a certain model / spec, but from day one I was never happy with the back end of the MC.

          Due to the amount of miles I cover, <2k now, I don't want to spend a fortune on performance mods, but the suspension is far too soft imo. My wife's Audi (granted it's an s line) is rock solid compared to the MC & it's a family, 4 door hatch.

          I don't know if I have rose tinted glasses on here, but my 1990 8 valve VW corrado had a firmer, more assured ride than the MC.

          I personally think the MC is much more refined than it's looks. The ride is really smooth, but the drawback is having all that performance and not enough assurance that you can put all the power down.

          Anyways, the suspension needs firming up IMO. If you need to replace something, for me it's rear springs, you might as well upgrade.

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          • #6
            I get where this guys coming from...personal experience is.......

            Front Strut brace...did nothing! except for getting in the way in the engine bay! took it off and didnt miss a thing!

            H/Rs front and back,,,A remarkable difference even with my old suspension.
            My car feels flatter,and far less body roll,

            I needed to replace a spring when i had my boot welded etc..so replaced both with new OEM ones..then shortly after replaced with GAZ ones as i was a bit skint at the time.ride feels nice albeit a bit to comfortable...and a tad springy!

            Will be fitting Indys kit very shortly...and cant wait!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by markedkiller78 View Post
              I don't know if I have rose tinted glasses on here, but my 1990 8 valve VW corrado had a firmer, more assured ride than the MC.
              I think it's true. There's a photo from the Autocar review with it at an extreme angle I doubt most other performacne cars, especially not the likes of a contemporary 911 would do.

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              • #8
                I have kept mine standard as it is fine for "fast road" driving. Hey, if it rolls a bit you just react with steering and power. The car is designed for this purpose and is (as always with road cars) a compromise between handling and ride. Also, stifening up things will likely cause other damage in time and cause the car to have trim noise issues etc.

                Just make sure the components perform as designed and are replaced as necessary.
                S54 Titan Silver metallic. Black leather, most factory options including sunroof, Becker Cascade and Becker Silverstone changer.

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                • #9
                  As people have said, things have moved on a lot and the MC is far too soft/high/floaty but makes for a comfortable cruiser.

                  I am only hoping my new setup will be nicely tort and not too crashy.


                  Originally posted by markedkiller78 View Post

                  My wife's Audi (granted it's an s line) is rock solid compared to the MC & it's a family, 4 door hatch.
                  Not wishing to offend anyone with an S line but it has to be some of the worst suspension around, just rock hard and horrendously crashy for the sake of it (been in A3, 4 and 5s and they have all been the same). Why on earth people would want a luxury car with awful suspension is beyond me, especially in a big car like the A5
                  2002 '52 S54 - Titanium Silver with 18" BBS LMs, AP Racing BBK, KW V3, H&R anti roll bars & ACS flippers (previously 2000 'X' S50 - Arctic Silver)

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                  • #10
                    i know where your coming from about the audi , my car rides as well as the wifes a5 s line even with the recent mods !

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Spooks View Post
                      As people have said, things have moved on a lot and the MC is far too soft/high/floaty but makes for a comfortable cruiser.

                      I am only hoping my new setup will be nicely tort and not too crashy.

                      Not wishing to offend anyone with an S line but it has to be some of the worst suspension around, just rock hard and horrendously crashy for the sake of it (been in A3, 4 and 5s and they have all been the same). Why on earth people would want a luxury car with awful suspension is beyond me, especially in a big car like the A5
                      I had an S-Line A3 and thought it was pretty good as was an A5 S-Line, firm but it was fine I thought, it did have 19s on it too. Where the A3 falls down is broken tarmac but the current Sport we have which is much softer sprung still suffers in the same way.

                      Your car shouldn't be crashy, my Coupe has lower springs, stiffer dampers, the H&R bars and I sometimes ride it on 215/40/17 and 245/35/17 tyres and it still rides ok on normal roads.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ian View Post
                        I have kept mine standard as it is fine for "fast road" driving. Hey, if it rolls a bit you just react with steering and power. The car is designed for this purpose and is (as always with road cars) a compromise between handling and ride. Also, stifening up things will likely cause other damage in time and cause the car to have trim noise issues etc.

                        Just make sure the components perform as designed and are replaced as necessary.
                        I totally disagree.....Many OEM parts, whilst built to a specification, are also built to a price so they can be improved upon with good quality, well developed aftermarket parts.

                        The MC's suspension components fall into that category IMO. With top quality dampers and the right spring rates, there is no reason why it can't be improved without compromise.

                        Originally posted by c_w View Post
                        my Coupe has lower springs, stiffer dampers, the H&R bars and I sometimes ride it on 215/40/17 and 245/35/17 tyres and it still rides ok on normal roads.
                        My car is also set up as a road car and provides much improved performance over OEM but with a good ride.

                        I think suspension is probably the area where the MC can be improved most for smile per &#163;.

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                        • #13
                          Definitely, that is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread that whilst you can stiffen the car loads, the relatively small trade off in comfort is just that in comparison with the massively better handling and response. Ie BMW *could* have made this car a lot stiffer without ruining the ride. The then "factory approved" ACS kit would have been ideal as a factory option. Just the ARBs and it would handle fantastic on track.

                          Whether it was the E36 M3's halo that was being protected or just that in the late 90s they still weren't in to producing firm riding cars (like the later E46 M3 and CSL and Z4).

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                          • #14
                            Cheers for all the feedback.

                            It's pretty interesting to hear all the opinions, especially where people have left standard suspension.

                            I went out in a friends Z4(the latest one) recently. It's a mid range one with standard everything and the ride was much harsher than the MC. Jarring at times I thought.
                            Partly due to bigger wheels and lower profile tyres no doubt, but certainly felt less forgiving.
                            Then again mine has over 100k on original susp, so it's probably just a tired old hag.
                            S54 Seca Blue - ACS Short shift and Exhaust. Luverly.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Seca Blue View Post
                              Cheers for all the feedback.

                              It's pretty interesting to hear all the opinions, especially where people have left standard suspension.

                              I went out in a friends Z4(the latest one) recently. It's a mid range one with standard everything and the ride was much harsher than the MC. Jarring at times I thought.
                              Partly due to bigger wheels and lower profile tyres no doubt, but certainly felt less forgiving.
                              Then again mine has over 100k on original susp, so it's probably just a tired old hag.

                              is Z4 not also on Run flats, they make even the smallest of bump sharp and harsh.

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