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AP brakes - it is overkill

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  • #16
    just my two penneth worth


    my e46 had standard brakes and i upgraded them to ap 6 pots and it was the best mod i did

    when i bought the mc the brakes were standard ( as ben had knicked them lol) but that was the only thing lacking

    feel and fade even though they were running goodrich and pagids

    were not up to the aps

    for evey day driving and a little spirted jaunts there fine

    now running aps again and love them

    like everything you pays your money you takes your choice

    one mans meet and all that
    [GROWING OLD IS COMPULSARY ---- GROWING UP IS OPTIONAL

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    • #17
      Yep I would agree that some big disc and multi piston caliper conversions is the ultimate brake option but costs ££££; what I would say is that the standard setup can be modified to be dependable and probably do 90% of that for 10% of the cost.

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      • #18
        cw tell right! but i eard many people whit same mod the brake disk after some trackday require to change,it's an old discussion also i research in many forums for this problem..
        The way is that,you want an good brake in the road and dont search the bestlap on track keep the original caliper..
        Want an car can brake more an every buy an bbk..
        The very problem is the calipers on the m cars..
        www.fastdrive.org
        S50 black/black-red In Rome
        Front BBK Stoptech Red+Eibach Sway Bars+Kw Clubsport Whit Camber plates+Weichers Strutbar+Agk Urethane front Silent Block & differential Bushing+Tuner Motorposrt Alluminium Rear Mount+Hamann Exaust

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        • #19
          Originally posted by fastdrive View Post
          cw tell right! but i eard many people whit same mod the brake disk after some trackday require to change,it's an old discussion also i research in many forums for this problem..
          The way is that,you want an good brake in the road and dont search the bestlap on track keep the original caliper..
          Want an car can brake more an every buy an bbk..
          I've been pleased with my brakes since I fitted new OEM discs and Yellowstuff pads and I use them quite hard and I've only changed the pads once (just before the Ring trip) so they've lasted a decent amount of time IMO. Fitted the discs around July 07 and have done about 4 trackdays and this recent trip to the Nurburgring and they have been faultless and always smooth on the drive home. Strangely Dino with his AP-equipped M3 still has the odd grumble when hot but nothing like the wobble when running DS2500 pads.

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          • #20
            i dont had experience in track whit oem disk,if your remember i noticed after few months the bad braking of my car,probabily also the old oil & pads,but anyway after many comments of other italian owners the oem brake isn't good compared to other cars,carrera & lotus..
            On the ring,yesterday take the decision to goes 1-2-3 august,dont need more the brakes i eard from many people whit more experience..
            It's an good mod,but if you want really brake whit an big brake it's the only way.
            The ds2500 is road-semi track,need to put the ds3000 or pagid black-orange-yellow,is more better...
            MY experience,1000km of track my brake disk continues to stay good,my friends 3-4 trackday whit pagid orange need to change..
            www.fastdrive.org
            S50 black/black-red In Rome
            Front BBK Stoptech Red+Eibach Sway Bars+Kw Clubsport Whit Camber plates+Weichers Strutbar+Agk Urethane front Silent Block & differential Bushing+Tuner Motorposrt Alluminium Rear Mount+Hamann Exaust

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            • #21
              Yes, it could be argued that the Ring isn't that hard on brakes as it's such a fast circuit but I remember last time they didn't last two corners; one of the biggest problems IMO is "thermal shock" as you can't properly warm up the brakes, you set off from the gate on a fast section hitting 120mph then have to hit the potentially cold brakes down to around 55/60. I think it's better to have the brakes warmed through.

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              • #22
                I've been using Red Stuff pads for over 10k miles and OEM disks with no problems. I've just bought some Yellow Stuff pads as their replacement, since c_w has given them rave reviews and has tackled the brakes issue in the same way as me in going down the ducting route. I'll report my findings in due course.
                /// Exdos ///
                "Men who try the impossible and fail spectacularly are infinitely superior to those who reach for nothing and succeed" --Napoleon Bonapart

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                • #23
                  I've fitted the Yellow Stuff pads this morning, and been looking at the wear on the OEM discs. I measured the wear on the discs using the unworn edge as a the guide using a micrometer and I've lost about 0.6mm on 28k miles. I'm considering changing the discs and looking at alternatives to the OEM discs, which are accepted on this forum as being the best.

                  I've come across Nitrac Discs as sold here:
                  http://www.motorsportworld.co.uk/fra.../manranges.asp
                  with further details relating to similar cryogenically treated brake discs here:
                  http://www.frozenrotors.com/pages/racetrack_proven.php
                  http://www.frozenrotors.com/ Interestingly they use a Z3 Coupe as their racecar.

                  The science sounds right but has any one tried these or know anything about them is use? They are supposed to be warp-proof with reduced wear on disc and pads, or is this just sales blurb?
                  Last edited by exdos; 05-07-2008, 05:19 PM.
                  /// Exdos ///
                  "Men who try the impossible and fail spectacularly are infinitely superior to those who reach for nothing and succeed" --Napoleon Bonapart

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                  • #24
                    I run porsche 993 turbo (big reds) with porsche discs and movit adaptors in the front and 993 rear discs with 996 calippers in the back.
                    Very happy with the kit, stops amazing even if the discs are all gone (small cracks around the holes and blue-ish color -C_W saw them at the ring....) anyways the new discs just arrived so about to change them.

                    Just bot another set of calipper and discs adaptors for my brother's z4m so if anyone is interested I will make some coppies in august when I go home (or you can copy them in a machine shop in the UK but I guess will be more $$$)

                    2 big reds calippers = 400 gbp
                    2 996 calippers = 250 gbp
                    2 rear discs 993 = 120 gbp
                    2 front discs 993 turbo = 250 gbp
                    front pads 993 turbo = 80 gbp
                    rear pads 996 = 60 gbp
                    cost for mashining the adaptors = no idea but cannot be that much

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by oxam View Post
                      I run porsche 993 turbo (big reds) with porsche discs and movit adaptors in the front and 993 rear discs with 996 calippers in the back.
                      Very happy with the kit, stops amazing even if the discs are all gone (small cracks around the holes and blue-ish color -C_W saw them at the ring....) anyways the new discs just arrived so about to change them.

                      Just bot another set of calipper and discs adaptors for my brother's z4m so if anyone is interested I will make some coppies in august when I go home (or you can copy them in a machine shop in the UK but I guess will be more $$$)

                      2 big reds calippers = 400 gbp
                      2 996 calippers = 250 gbp
                      2 rear discs 993 = 120 gbp
                      2 front discs 993 turbo = 250 gbp
                      front pads 993 turbo = 80 gbp
                      rear pads 996 = 60 gbp
                      cost for mashining the adaptors = no idea but cannot be that much

                      Interesting, I had a kit made to fit my rx-7 and they are amazing. I also have a spare set of big red calipers, where did you get your disc adaptors from to suit the mc? I was going to use the csl or maybe the oe 46 m3 discs in order to fit under the std rims, but the porsche discs are much better.. I think cracking is normal as the ones on the rx-7 have been cracked for years and the crack lengths haven't changed and if they are oe discs the crack lengths should never grow to a critical crack length for failure anyway.

                      Anyway I'll definitely be interested in getting a set of extender brackets made, I'm in no rush if you can get them done cheaper in august. Just let me know how much $$$ they will cost and what details you need

                      Thanks,

                      Paul

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                      • #26
                        my car came with the kit and I bought the second one on the german ebay. MOVIT sells the whole front disc (993tt + disc adaptor) for 400 EUR per piece.
                        I am going to check with a machine shop how much they will charge for the adaptor only.
                        The extender brackets look quite easy to be copied so I doubt it will be too much $$$....I will just make a few sets and bring them back with me (they can always be put in use:)

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                        • #27
                          I've decided I'm going to stick with the OEM rotors for several reasons:
                          1. they're of the "floating" type and most/all aftermarket rotors are solid castings.
                          2. the centre of the OEM floating disc is aluminium, which keeps the weight to a minimum and is especially important here since it is "unsprung mass".
                          3. air from my auxiliary ducting can keep the floating discs cooler, whereas a one-piece casting, doesn't have the same venting ability.
                          4. I've had no problems with the OEM brake discs to date.

                          Is there anywhere other than stealers that sell genuine BMW parts, perhaps an internet discount outfit?
                          /// Exdos ///
                          "Men who try the impossible and fail spectacularly are infinitely superior to those who reach for nothing and succeed" --Napoleon Bonapart

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                          • #28
                            Cheers John, you are about the only person (except c_w/ZZZEMMCO) who thinks that the OEM discs are sturdy enough for road/trackday use, subject to getting
                            1/ the right pads, and/or,
                            2/ a DIY disc cooling arrangement.

                            IMO, there is no reason to go off OEM for the discs. Those 2 alterations should take care of any deficiencies in the factory setup (albeit we will all forever completely disagree on the best aftermarket pads).

                            But the DIY cooling 'fix' is essential for anybody who is serious about sorting out their perceived ZMC braking problems. OEM discs/pads only underperform when overheated. And sorting out the overheating problem with ducting is (theoretically) cheap if you do it yourself - if not - I'll let know in the next 3 weeks when I get my garage to do it.
                            Strongstrut CL front brace-Yellowstuff pads/Castrol SRF race brake fluid-Rogue top mounts/Rear support bushes-H&R ARBs-Whiteline droplinks-Bilstein Sport shockers-H&R Springs-Black Halo Angel Eye headlight units-Sachs lightweight flywheel/matching clutch-Supersprint exhaust/race catalysers-BBS RSGTs with Falkens-K&N High Flow Air Filter-Recaro Pole Position seats - Exdos mod - ACS flippers

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                            • #29
                              OEM discs are the best you can buy!

                              i run the CSL discs and they are awesome!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by coupe fan View Post
                                Cheers John, you are about the only person (except c_w/ZZZEMMCO) who thinks that the OEM discs are sturdy enough for road/trackday use, subject to getting
                                1/ the right pads, and/or,
                                2/ a DIY disc cooling arrangement.
                                IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with the basic one-off stopping power of the OEM brakes, it's the just the "duty cycle" (ability to keep doing the same thing over and a over again) that needs a little help.

                                Since the basic principle of braking is that kinetic energy is converted to heat energy by the frictional forces of brake pads on brake discs then, if by stopping the car from 100mph to rest heats the discs, say, from 20degsC to 520degsC (only guessing at figures here) and you don't cool the discs back down to 20degsC before you repeat the same braking exercise, then the discs might be at around 350degs C at the start of the repeat braking exercise. Therefore, you would be asking the brake discs to heat up to 850degsC (they would be red hot at this temperature) to perform the same as they do from ambient temperature. This is not going to happen, and you'll get brake fade unless the brakes are forcibly cooled between each application of the brakes with ducted air.

                                Take a look at the photo of the OEM floating rotors; they're an absolute work of art! The basic design of the OEM floating rotors allows for cooling, and the only thing that is missing is the ducting, but since there's already an aperture for cooling on the dust shield, it's a very simple and cheap job to provide pipework to this aperture. Job done!

                                Another advantage of the OEM rotors is that the heat in the discs is not transferred to the hubs, which prevents the wheel bearings from getting cooked.

                                I've just managed to order some OEM discs from a local stealer for £198.43 including VAT! I think that's a great price.

                                Interestingly, BMW used to use 4 pot calipers on some of its models over 15 years ago, but now uses one pots on all its models now, including M6, X5 and 7 series.

                                If you could fit the Z4 MC brakes inside your wheels, I think that would be the best set of brakes to have, with some ducting of course!







                                /// Exdos ///
                                "Men who try the impossible and fail spectacularly are infinitely superior to those who reach for nothing and succeed" --Napoleon Bonapart

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