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has anyone done away with there vanos?

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  • has anyone done away with there vanos?

    speaking to a chap today who informed that he has heard of people who have done away with the wear and tear of the vanos issue with a kit which is from the states.

    apparently the kit does away with the vanos all together and simply runs verniers pulleys on performance cams.

    the down side is the adjustment of valve timing that the vanos obviously gives

    the up side is no vanos issue from there on.

    I suppose if revs are kept high enough on a track then its a win win but don't really have the figures to argue just how much the adjustment of valve timing gives lower down.

    I can only think back to my old ford days when we adjusted advance on distributors for max benefit at top end and put up with poor idles etc as the distributor would max out it's advance by 2500 rpm. curious to know if vanos adjusts timing to its max potential at similar rpm as this would give some kind of idea to the losses lower down if done away with.

    the chap is getting back to me in next day or so, so I intend to ask where the kit is sourced from out of pure curiosity.

    just thought others may have heard about it.

  • #2
    There are many Vanos-delete kits out there.

    If you wish to keep the functionality of the Vanos and eliminate the wear-and-tear/noise issues, I recommend looking at the more inexpensive option of Dr.Vanos.

    I have had his Stage II kit (for the US S52B32 engine) for over a year now with 12+ track days and it has performed flawlessly. He now offers kits for the S50B32 euro motors.

    http://drvanos.com/euro_m3.htm

    Chris (Dr.Vanos) is great to work with; tell him Byron sent you.

    Good luck with whichever solution you go with.

    Ciao...

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    • #3
      Is the DrVanos kit easy to install?

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      • #4
        there are instructions on the Dr Vanos web site, though wouldn't do it myself....

        been in touch with Chris from Dr Vanos recently as my vanos has been identified as the reason behind my hesitant starting prob (http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7413). the price for a Vanos is $350 plus $700 core charge refundable when you send the worn vanos back

        Very, very reasonable compared against the 2k including labour charge from BMW...who will fit a reconditioned vanos anyway which will presumably have the same standard of components which cause failure. Dr Vanos have apparently identified the weak points and fit uprated components to their reconditioned vanos kits

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        • #5
          Originally posted by simon768622 View Post
          there are instructions on the Dr Vanos web site, though wouldn't do it myself....

          been in touch with Chris from Dr Vanos recently as my vanos has been identified as the reason behind my hesitant starting prob (http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7413). the price for a Vanos is $350 plus $700 core charge refundable when you send the worn vanos back

          Very, very reasonable compared against the 2k including labour charge from BMW...who will fit a reconditioned vanos anyway which will presumably have the same standard of components which cause failure. Dr Vanos have apparently identified the weak points and fit uprated components to their reconditioned vanos kits
          I'm intrigued as to what Dr.Vanos has come up with...having had VANOS replaced on my Z3MC and and E36 M3 Evo. What are these weak parts they have uprated? (they don't say on the website)

          From my resarch, and talking to an engineer friend of mine the weak point is that you have two sets of gears meshing together (to alter the timing) with no form of direct lubrication, so they wear a bit and start to rattle and not work 100%

          So how has he fixed that? I found the details on his website rather sparse, but have not talked to him, but certainly would do so if I did need some!

          PS As has been mentioned on here before (by me) you can buy the 2 x timing sprockets from BMW for about £700, these also include the VANOS gears (that mesh into the sprockets)...so you can replace all the gears for much less than £2k.

          IMHO there is no point in replacing the controller (silver box at front of engine) as that just has some electrical gubbins (solenoids etc) which aren't the bits that fail and rattle. BMW tended to replace the controller (also known as VANOS transmission) under warranty (which includes one set of the gears, but not the sprockets) - so that's poss why they were sometimes replaced frequently (believe my Evo had 3 lots of VANOS repairs in 35k miles under warranty!)
          -------------------------
          Ex Ex Ex: 1998 M Coupé, Estoril/Estoril+Black. HK+ MD+CD Changer, roof, side bags, lamp wash.
          Ex Ex: 1998 M3 Evo Coupé, Estoril / Blk with all the toys.
          Ex: 2004 Z4 3.0i, Silver / blk with no roof.
          Now: 2003 M3 CSL, Silver Grey, lots of carbon fibre.

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          • #6
            As I understad it the Dr Vanos kit is only a reconditioned soloniod block with new seals. It doesn't include the gears, which are the expensive part and why prices of circa 2k from BMW are the norm.

            So $350 for some new seals sounds expensive to me. I read the kit comes with 35 pieces, but I wonder if that counts every bolt, washer, o-ring, gasket, tube of RTV etc.

            Correct me if I'm wrong.
            Imola S50 1999

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            • #7
              Originally posted by cragg711220 View Post
              As I understad it the Dr Vanos kit is only a reconditioned soloniod block with new seals. It doesn't include the gears, which are the expensive part and why prices of circa 2k from BMW are the norm.

              So $350 for some new seals sounds expensive to me. I read the kit comes with 35 pieces, but I wonder if that counts every bolt, washer, o-ring, gasket, tube of RTV etc.

              Correct me if I'm wrong.
              I've just sent a mail to him to confirm exactly what is included....

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              • #8
                It would seem strange if it's claimed to fix the rattle if it doesn't include the gears?

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                • #9
                  that's what I thought, let's see what he comes back with

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                  • #10
                    Until Dr.Vanos replies directly to your inquiries on the S50B32, take a look on his site for what he does for the Stage II S52B32, and that will give you an idea of his solutioning and product.

                    Hope that helps.

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                    • #11
                      Hi Everyone, Chris (DrVanos) here.

                      Here are the basic details of the Euro vanos kits;

                      The S50B32 vanos is the most complex unit of the bunch (including the E46 M3 and E39 M5 units), and probably has close to 100 individual parts. There is an oil pump on the back of the unit that is driven by the exhaust cam gear, which pressurizes the oil to about 100bar, regulated by a pressure regulating valve inside the vanos. The hydraulic pressure drives the two splined gears (there's only 1 gear on the S50B30 unit) and the solenoid packs control the flow of the pressurized oil. It's a fairly complex system, but well designed as long as the seals and O-rings do their job. Unfortunately, these will harden over time and the high oil pressure overcomes the failed seals, causing the vanos to stop working properly.

                      I fully tear down and clean every part of the vanos and rebuild it with all new seals, O-rings, gaskets, filter, and several other small parts that are prone to fail or wear out. Nothing out of the ordinary really, but the new seals are made from a much better quality material so they will last much longer than the stock parts. The oil pump is cleaned and checked as well. There are no less than 16 O-rings and seals that get replaced, and yes those along with the small bolts, gaskets and other bits add up to something like 35 parts (RTV not included. ).

                      The splined gears that attach to the back of the vanos (which have bearings inside) are also rebuilt and the bearing assembly machined to bring the bearing tolerances back to a proper specification. This, in combination with the new internal seals will address the awful rattling noises these units can make. New gears and sprockets are NOT required....

                      In fact, if you were to spend the £700 on new gears and sprockets from BMW it would NOT guarantee to fix the rattling because they don't actually 'wear out' as some might think. These gears and sprockets are hardened (heat treated) to a very, very high specification. I had some parts tested at a local heat treating company on a very expensive testing machine and they measured almost off the chart. Even the engineers were a bit surprised at the level of hardness that was measured. So the theory that the gears begin to wear out after a while and need to be replaced is totally untrue. I would expect them to survive a small explosion, in fact. ;)

                      Finally, the solenoids (with fresh O-rings installed) are bench tested with compressed air using the special BMW tools required to activate them. This ensures everything is working properly before shipping the vanos out. If a solenoid does not work, then it would need to be replaced with a new one from BMW at additional cost, but that is rare.

                      The complete process is a tedious job, and takes a fair amount of time to clean and rebuild both the vanos unit and the splined gears.

                      Removal and installation of the Euro vanos and splined gears from the engine is reasonably complex, so a knowledgeable BMW shop is highly recommended. When you remove the splined gears, the cams are no longer directly connected to the crank and the timing could accidentally be affected when reinstalling the vanos. Some special tools are also needed.

                      I recently had a customer in France send me his before/after videos of his installation. You can view the video on our website, or at the link below...

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSfbOYRjfjQ

                      He was very happy to say the least!

                      Unfortunately with these Euro spec units, they are very hard to find used. I am slowly building up inventory but it will take some time. If anyone knows of a source for even 1 or 2 of these units, any condition, please let me know.

                      I can supply the vanos up front but you may be on a waiting list. Right now the best option is to send your vanos to us for the rebuild. Turn around time is just a day or two.

                      I hope that answers some questions, and I apologize for the lack of detail and info on the website. I am trying to add more content and info whenever I get a chance. Feel free to email me if you have further questions.

                      -Chris
                      Last edited by CG_731; 24-12-2008, 12:58 AM.

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                      • #12
                        thanks for input on this everyone.

                        I introduced the thread to see if the removal of the vanos was a viable option with hopefully minimal impact to lower end rpm but see that CG 731 (DR Vanos) suggests the repair is better. My vanos is not broken but I do think it's on the vocal side when dropping down from revs (fussy nature I'm afraid)

                        I'm not disputing the repair method but are now confused a little on a couple of points perhaps you could clarify.

                        The noise/ rattle has not been attributed to anything in your reply i.e is it the worn gears etc and secondly, if you machine a worn gear by taking material off then how is it that will improve tolerances? taking material off increases tolerences surely.

                        by machining the gear you must also be deteriorating the surface hardness treatment that you praise BMW for obtaining also.

                        Can you clarify these points CG 731 please?

                        my engineering background at power plants involved me reconditioning valve spindles and such like by having them professionally welded/machined and then heat treated to obtain the hardness. This was megabucks to do.

                        just can't see how your comments so far solve this.

                        I also hope my comments are construe as antagonistic, I just wish to know how your repair solves things that's all. this is not a personal attack.

                        any more thoughts on the removal of vanos kit also?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ever88 View Post

                          any more thoughts on the removal of vanos kit also?
                          Although I have an S54 rather than a S50, my datalogging shows that the performance of the engine is pretty much the same throughout the entire rev range, which must be largely attributable to variable valve timing from the Vanos? Would you agree?

                          If you delete the Vanos, would you not optimise the performance in a narrow rev range to the detriment of overall performance? How would your MC perform in speed restricted traffic conditions?
                          /// Exdos ///
                          "Men who try the impossible and fail spectacularly are infinitely superior to those who reach for nothing and succeed" --Napoleon Bonapart

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                          • #14
                            umm see the video,seems my car make the sound after not before.
                            I consider lucky at this point,my car had 75.000km no vanos rebuild.
                            www.fastdrive.org
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                            • #15
                              Well after DrVanos's magic it certainly sounds brilliant, but at what cost??
                              In order to be irreplaceable one must always be different.

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